Phoenix,
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think as long as the choice isn't taken away in this respect, it's ok. So, we agree to disagree my friend.
Phoenix32890 wrote:Momma- I don't care if it is elective or not. A class on religion, unless it is a class in comparative religions (which is usually taught on the college, and not the high school level anyhow) IMO is NEVER appropriate in a public school.
Would that include civil religion? I must say I find the pledge of allegiance quite offensive, with or without "under god".
Thomas wrote:I must say I find the pledge of allegiance quite offensive, with or without "under god".
I could not agree more. The original, written by a Baptist minister, by the way, did not include the words "under god."
As for my analogy, although it is a happy exercise for you to characterize it as weak, you ignore that both the bible and holocaust denial rely heavily upon historical distortions and outright lies.
Phoenix,
I don't fully understand. Why would you squirm because some were from other countries?
Setanta wrote:Thomas wrote:I must say I find the pledge of allegiance quite offensive, with or without "under god".
I could not agree more. The original, written by a Baptist minister, by the way, did not include the words "under god."
As for my analogy, although it is a happy exercise for you to characterize it as weak, you ignore that both the bible and holocaust denial rely heavily upon historical distortions and outright lies.
So, for all we know, do Homer's
Illiad and his
Odyssey, or Shakespeare's
Macbeth and
Richard III. Come to think of it, I am not even entirely convinced that every charge about king George Thomas Jefferson made in
The Declaration of Independence would stand up to serious scrutiny. I still it's a good idea for students to read these books in school. The Bible belongs in the same category.
I could not agree less. Were it a part of a course which included the scriptural canon of a great many other religions, or were it a part of a course which inluded a great many texts of a similar alleged antiquity, there would be little reason to object. It's presentation, however, as a "stand alone" document, by a very strong inference makes it out to be a more significant scriptural canon or ancient document.
Momma Angel wrote:Phoenix,
I don't fully understand. Why would you squirm because some were from other countries?
Wouldn't you wonder about their sincerity?
The Bible has influenced Western civilization more than any other book. Studying it in public school seems fitting, as long as the course is comprehensive enough to include the negative influence as well as the positive. And the teacher can't wear purple robes, either.
neologist- I think that you missed my point. Why would a person from another country have to be put in the embarrassing position having most of the other people in the room pledging allegience to a country of which they (the non Americans) have no loyalty?
I didn't look, but I doubt that these folks went along with the group. They most likely stood silently, like I do when the "under God" is spoken.
When one considers the influence of organized religion in European history (which includes the history of the Americas), the use of the word "civilization" becomes dubious. It is also more than a little questionable to my mind to assert such a profound influence for the bible. It might, possibly, be reasonable to assert that it is the most influential book in European history, but give that there are literally thousands of influential books in European history, that ain't sayin' too damned much.
Like I do when the whole thing is spoken
Setanta wrote:I could not agree less. Were it a part of a course which included the scriptural canon of a great many other religions, or were it a part of a course which inluded a great many texts of a similar alleged antiquity, there would be little reason to object. It's presentation, however, as a "stand alone" document, by a very strong inference makes it out to be a more significant scriptural canon or ancient document.
Would you similarly object to an elective course in which students would devote most of their time to dramatic readings of Shakespeare's plays about England's royal family? Would it trouble you in any way that these dramas, considered as history books, are as shoddy as the bible?
Phoenix,
I wouldn't feel anything like that. Just as if I were in someone else's country and they were following some custom, ritual, etc. I would probably just stand there and be silent out of respect for them.
Phoenix32890 wrote:neologist- I think that you missed my point. Why would a person from another country have to be put in the embarrassing position having most of the other people in the room pledging allegience to a country of which they (the non Americans) have no loyalty?
I didn't look, but I doubt that these folks went along with the group. They most likely stood silently, like I do when the "under God" is spoken.
You're right; I did misunderstand. I guess it kind of reminded me of the times before I left the church when I mumbled the prayers so I wouldn't be noticed.
Momma- These people are not citizens of the US, but they are members of our community. As such, I thought that the president of the association should have shown some sensitivity. It really was not necessary to say the pledge at this particular meeting.
Phoenix,
How did those people respond to this?
Phoenix,
I guess I just have a problem with some things like this. I know that if I were to go to China and live, I would be expected to learn to speak Chinese in order to communicate and live socially. I certainly could not expect the Chinese to learn English for me.
I believe that we should not be expected to change to accommodate everyone else that comes into this country. On some things, yes, I feel we can use some tweaking. But, I am sure if we were in their country and their national anthem were to be played, they wouldn't expect us to feel badly because of it. I don't feel we should change certain things. This is just one of those things.
I do, however, since I have gotten to know you some, understand your feeling this way. I have never been in this actual position so it is, of course, easy for me to say how I think I would feel.
