1
   

New US textbook aims to teach Bible as knowledge

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 03:22 pm
Setanta wrote:
I have long since realized that there is no hope for the amelioration of your English usage, Thomas, so i certainly would excuse you just about any violence you do the langauge.

My heart goes out to you. If you can't bear it any longer, I'll be happy to continue the conversation in German.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 03:25 pm
Help yourself, it is as likely to make sense to me . . .
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 03:27 pm
I hate to admit it, but that was a pretty good line.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 03:27 pm
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Set, I'm not sure if I am reading this wrong, but I am receiving a very condescending tone from your posts. I get the feeling you think of me as a 5th grade educated, bible banging, backwoods hill billy.


You are reading it wrong. I start with the assumption that anyone reading here is capable of understanding what i've written. I think it is reasonable of me to assert that i've neither altered my customary compositional style nor my use of vocabulary in order to address you.

If i thought you were stupid, i would either ignore you altogether, or simply ridicule your attempts to write. I have done neither of these things.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 03:28 pm
I'll keep that to myself, Thomas, after all, a man has his pride . . .
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 03:38 pm
Setanta wrote:
You are reading it wrong. I start with the assumption that anyone reading here is capable of understanding what i've written. I think it is reasonable of me to assert that i've neither altered my customary compositional style nor my use of vocabulary in order to address you.

If i thought you were stupid, i would either ignore you altogether, or simply ridicule your attempts to write. I have done neither of these things.


Just checking. Being a good judge of intent in real life, I find myself somewhat inept at it in the digital world.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 04:16 pm
That problem is one of the few truly new things in human experience. You cannot see my face, nor hear the pitch of my voice. So, when i "say" something to you, you are unable to judge such nuances.

I am often accused of being heavy-handed and mean here. However, that is usually intentional on my part, because i want to leave no doubt in the mind of those whom i scorn that that is my reaction.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 04:19 pm
It's a common problem with spitzes, JP. You never know when they're "just playing".
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 04:35 pm
Setanta wrote:
I am often accused of being heavy-handed and mean here. However, that is usually intentional on my part, because i want to leave no doubt in the mind of those whom i scorn that that is my reaction.


Which is why I brought it up. When you started to describe different levels of basic science courses and what they consist of, the only conclusion I could think of was that you thought I may not have first hand knowledge of this information already.

The miscommunication (on my part) that led you to believe that I "subscribe to a notion that evolution is an attack on creation, and therefore unacceptable in public education," as well as my phrase that suggested to you that I believe "that the teaching of science is neither useful nor important," could not be further from the truth.

I just thought I would try to clear up any mischaracterization that may have taken place.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 04:42 pm
Thomas wrote:
It's a common problem with spitzes, JP. You never know when they're "just playing".


I think I'll just leave it up to you next time, Thomas. Your english, ameliorated or not, is apparently still better than mine.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2005 05:28 am
Setanta wrote:
I would note that you seem unable to dispense with science altogether, you seem to see a need for what you imprecisely refer to as "basics." I would laugh to scorn any contention that evolutionary biology is not a basic fundament of science.

I think you misunderstand me. There was no "ought" implied in my observation that the Humanistisches Gymnasium teaches a science curriculum, albeit a small one. I merely implied a matter of fact: That people's success in science appears to correlate weakly with how much science they learned in school.

As it happens, I personally would want a science curriculum for my kids, and I'd prefer it to be more than just a basic one. Then again, I also don't think my preferrences ought to bind what other parents have schools teach their children. Therefore, the only disciplines I would have the state make mandatory is reading and writing, and I could be persuaded to add basic arithmetics. Beyond that, everything should be an elective -- to be taught at the discretion of the individual school, and to be learned at the discretion of the individual student and maybe his parents.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:
I think I'll just leave it up to you next time, Thomas.

By all means, don't! You're doing just fine.
0 Replies
 
Redeemed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 01:13 pm
Setanta:

Sorry to get back to you so late. I wanted to be able to give you a thought-out response, and now that finals are over, I can do that. Smile

Setanta wrote:

Quote:
You are confusing cause and effect. Beyond the temple societies, priesthoods served the ruling power. The only significant exception to this is the attempt by the papacy in the gothic period and the early middle ages to assert a temporal authority based upon a contention of divine approbation. The effort failed. It is not necessary to discuss the contemporary theology to take note of or teach any of that. In the Orthodox chruch of the time, in the Roman Empire (which survived in the east), the Emperor was also the head of the church (which eventually split from the Orthodox to become the Byzantine Catholic), and was therefore the most honest expression of the church and orthodoxy supporting the temporal authority.

Understanding a culture will, however, go a long to explaining religious orthodoxy--such as how it were that "good christians" thought to justify slavery in the souther states of the United States. Since the rise of secular kings in ancient Sumer, religious orthodoxy has been made to serve the ends of temporal power, and whenever a priesthood has rebelled, they've been crushed.


What would you say, then, about the Islamic societies, past and present? Didn't those societies base their culture on the teachings of Mohammed? If I am correct, the laws and way of life of fundamental Islamic societies have stemmed from their holy book, the Quran, and their belief in Allah and his nature. The tenets of the Islamic faith are so much a part of how these cultures operate - how can students understand the culture if they if they don't understand the foundation?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 08:37 pm
Redeemed wrote:
What would you say, then, about the Islamic societies, past and present? Didn't those societies base their culture on the teachings of Mohammed? If I am correct, the laws and way of life of fundamental Islamic societies have stemmed from their holy book, the Quran, and their belief in Allah and his nature. The tenets of the Islamic faith are so much a part of how these cultures operate - how can students understand the culture if they if they don't understand the foundation?


In the case of Islam, you have a unique situation. Your question is perceptive--i referred to the cultural heritage of the "western" world. There is no priesthood in Islam, and the religion did not arise from the ruins of a former temple society. It was also born into a region with no strong temporal government, and which region had prospered for many centuries without a strong temporal authority. Those inhabitants of the Arabian penninsula who were not pagan were either christian (a tiny minority) or confessional Jews (i.e., they practiced Judaism, without respect to their ethnic origins--and the confessional Jews are thought to have been a bare majority of the population).

It is not to be assumed that Muslim society is based upon the Quran or the Hadith. The Hadith are the putative deeds and sayings of the Prophet and his Companions. The earliest Muslim universities arose from groups of scriptural scholars who studied and passed judgment on claims that something constituted a part of the Hadith, and on interpretations of the passages of the Quran. Sharia, "Islamic law," is not binding on anyone, although it is usually a basis for judicial decisions in Muslim societies. It was an effort to regularize interpretations of the Quran and the Hadith for judicial purposes which lead to the foundation of Muslim universities. In the final analysis, however, the ulama are the social and moral authority in an Islamic community. An alim (plural=ulama) is a righteous man--this is a judgment of the community. Imams and mullahs are teachers whose word is considered to have greater weight based upon their familiarity with the Quran and the Hadith--but ultimately, an imam or a mullah who does not command the respect of the community will have no influence. An imam or mullah who does command the respect of the community will have quite a great deal of authority. It is ironic that within the Shi'ia, a far more spiritualistic community than Sunni Islam, the teachers and "elders" of the community exercise much more influence than in Sunni Islam.

Basically, there are two major types of Islam, Sunni Islam and Shi'ism. The "first Shi'ite" was Ali, the cousin and son-in-law of the Prophet, who had married his daughter Fatima. He was also the fourth Caliph (the Caliphs are divided into the "Orthodox Caliphs," and succeeding "dynasties" of Caliphs, although the members of the dynastic Caliphate successions were not necessarily a succession of fathers and sons--their dynasties were doctrinal and ethnic).

Because of the lack of a priesthood and an heirarchical organization, Islam fragmented into sects very quickly. Within twenty years of the death of the Prophet, Islam had split into Sunni Islam and Shi'ism. Sunni Islam takes its name from the sunna. The sunna is older than Islam, and refers to the modus vivendi by which the fiercely proud and violent desert nomads of Arabia were able to move among the people of oases and cities, people whom they despised and would normally have been inclined to assault and/or murder out of hand. After the hegira, the flight of the Prophet and the Companions, the Companions asked how they could live as righteous men among pagans. The Prophet responded by reference to the sunna, and asserted that righteous men could live among pagans without pollution or violence, by the care with which they observed their religious orthodoxy, by the use of a new form of sunna. The great quarrel between Ali--a legendary Holy Warrior who fought the Mother of All Battles in Persia, making Persia (modern Iran) a Shi'ite nation from the very beginning of Islam in Persia--and the Companions was over the toleration of infidels. The Companions held that whereas pagans could be given the choice of conversion or being put to the sword, the "peoples of the book," the Jews and Christians, were infidels, but not pagans, and could be tolerated, and allowed to live in Muslim communities, although suffering financial, legal and social debilities. Ali held that any infidel was no better than a pagan. Once again, ironically, the Persians came to be among the most tolerant of Muslims. It was to the advantage of Muslims to have Jews and Christians in their communities, also, because they could travel to "infidel" nations for diplomatic and commerical purposes, and they pursued professions valuable in the community which were either unknown to Muslims or prohibited to them (representative art is an example).

In North Africa, the Muslims created a powerful and lasting new sect named for the Prophet's daughter Fatima, known as the Fatimid. They also became a ruling dynasty. Although ostensibly Shi'ite, there was no warfare between them and the Sunnis as there had been between the followers of Ali and the supporters of the Companions. Shi'ism itself began to fragment within a generation of the death of Ali, considered the first Imam. They have broken down on the question of how many Imams there would be until Ali returns (and even whether or not Ali will return) and who qualifies as a "true Iman." Among the Sunnis, there are many sects who are distinguished by the emphasis they put upon what they claim to be orthodox practice. Basically, divisions in Sunni Islam arise from the imposition of beliefs in what constitutes "righteous" behavior. Things such as female infanticide and female infantile genital mutilation are ancient tribal practices imposed upon Islam, and not authorized by the Quran (although not specifically condemned, either). The Wahabbi clan of what is now Saudia Arabia have been very fanatical "fundamentalist" orthodox Sunni Muslims, and the intermarriage of the Ibn Saud clan with the Wahabbis nearly three hundred years ago turned into a devil's bargain by which the Ibn Saud's claimed reighteous authority in Arabia, and which accounts for fundamentalist militancy in modern Saudi Arabia.

Islam is a fascinating study, and a bewildering one for Jews and Christians accustomed to more exactly defined orthodoxy and hierachical power structures in religious communities. It is truly sad to see so many Americans, and, to a lesser extent, Europeans, assume that all Muslims are alike and think and act alike. There is just as much variety in Islam as there is in Christianity.

It is just as important to know the political and social history of any Muslim nation as it is to understand the basic tenets of Islam. Each Muslim society has made their own decisions about what the Quran means, and have applied their own interpretations of the Quran and the Hadith. Understanding Egyptian Muslims will tell you nothing about Persians, and nothing about Indonesians.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 08:56 pm
Redeemed, i would like to point out that you should not consider me a scholar of Islamic history. What i know, i know because i study the history of the world, and of the region. It is entirely possible that there are those who could come here and correct errors which i may have made in my narrative. I suggest, though, that you can inform yourself better by taking that narrative, and looking up names online. I strongly suggest that modern christians need to do a good deal of study to better undertand the Muslim world--which is no more a monolith than is the "christian world." To assume that all Muslims think alike and are dangerous militants is as silly, and as dangerous, as it is for Muslims to assume that all Christians think alike and want to wage a crusade on Islam.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 09:56 pm
Thanks for those last posts, Setanta.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 10:11 pm
You're welcome, and thank you for your always kind regard . . .
0 Replies
 
Redeemed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Dec, 2005 10:31 am
Setanta wrote:

Quote:
Redeemed, i would like to point out that you should not consider me a scholar of Islamic history. What i know, i know because i study the history of the world, and of the region. It is entirely possible that there are those who could come here and correct errors which i may have made in my narrative. I suggest, though, that you can inform yourself better by taking that narrative, and looking up names online. I strongly suggest that modern christians need to do a good deal of study to better undertand the Muslim world--which is no more a monolith than is the "christian world." To assume that all Muslims think alike and are dangerous militants is as silly, and as dangerous, as it is for Muslims to assume that all Christians think alike and want to wage a crusade on Islam.


I'm not a scholar of Islamic history myself. What I know comes from the Western Civilization class I had a couple of semesters ago, which is a primarily a study of the big picture, rather than an in-depth study of one particular culture. What you say is so true: what I have studied of Islam in its various presentations shows me that, while there are unifying factors among them, there are a lot of differences. Goes to show that stereotypes and broad generalizations are never good ideas Smile.

As to your first response, the history of Muslim cultures interests me. Over my break I'll make a goal to research it. Some of it is familiar to me (the differences between the two sects, and the universities, for instance), but a lot of it is fuzzy (or nonexistent) in my memory from the class I had.

I agree that understanding the political and social histories of Muslim nations and cultures are as important as understanding the religious tenets. My Western Civ class integrated all of those aspects, and I can honestly say that it was the first history course that I enjoyed. I retained more from that semester than I did from any of my high school history courses.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Dec, 2005 10:52 am
Sadly, high school history is usually an exercise in teaching you the cultural historical myths which society prefers. A few years ago, i read an investigative report on the quality of high school text books--i was absolutely dumbfounded by the errors in history texts. However, i ought never be surprised--we live in a society in which Howard Zinn is a popular "historian."
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Dec, 2005 03:58 pm
Texas District Adopts Disputed Text on Bible Study





By BARBARA NOVOVITCH
Published: December 22, 2005
ODESSA, Tex., Dec. 21 -Trustees of the Ector County Independent School District here decided, 4 to 2, on Tuesday night that high school students would use a course published by the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools for studying the Bible in history and literature
The council is a religious advocacy group in Greensboro, N.C., and has the backing of the Eagle Forum and Focus on the Family, two conservative organizations.

The vote on the disputed textbook, for an elective Bible study course, has not ended the matter. Critics say the book promotes fundamentalist Protestant Christianity.

The district superintendent, Wendell Sollis, said Wednesday that he had recommended the textbook over a newer one by the Bible Literacy Project, published this year through the Freedom Forum and an ecumenical group of scholars and endorsed by a group of religious organizations.

"I felt like the National Council was a better fit for Odessa, because they're on several campuses here in Texas and because of their longevity," Mr. Sollis said.

David Newman, a professor of English at Odessa College, said he planned to sue the district because the curriculum advocated a fundamentalist Christian point of view.

The school board president, Randy Rives, said of the curriculum, which uses the King James Version of the Bible: "If you're going to teach something, it's better to use the source. I have complete confidence that we can teach this within the parameters of the law."

Professor Newman said, "If the beliefs of others don't match theirs, then the beliefs of others are irrelevant."

Last summer, the Texas Freedom Network, which promotes religious freedoms, asked a biblical scholar at Southern Methodist University, Mark A. Chancey, to examine the council course. Dr. Chancey said it had factual errors, promoted creationism and taught that the Constitution was based on Scripture.

A district trustee here, Carol Gregg, said she favored the Bible Literacy Project because it was "more user friendly toward teachers" and "more respectful of minority and majority" religious views.

Unlike the competing curriculum, it mentions several versions of the Bible.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Dec, 2005 04:04 pm
In the article post by AU, Miss Novovitch wrote:
The vote on the disputed textbook, for an elective Bible study course, has not ended the matter. Critics say the book promotes fundamentalist Protestant Christianity.


This is the issue of particularism which the fundys can't or won't get. Saying that the United States is a majority christian nation is no good reason to favor any one creed over another--but the real problem the evangelicals will run into over time will be the resistance to their agenda by other christians who do not accept their world view.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

700 Inconsistencies in the Bible - Discussion by onevoice
Why do we deliberately fool ourselves? - Discussion by coincidence
Spirituality - Question by Miller
Oneness vs. Trinity - Discussion by Arella Mae
give you chills - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence for Evolution! - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence of God! - Discussion by Bartikus
One World Order?! - Discussion by Bartikus
God loves us all....!? - Discussion by Bartikus
The Preambles to Our States - Discussion by Charli
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/28/2024 at 09:28:37