Momma Angel wrote:Thank you for answering. Isn't it likely though that we are known as a Christian nation because that is what the majority of the citizens claim to be?
There is a difference between a nation of Christians and a Christian nation.
Mesquite,
I understand that. But, isn't it possible that because the US has a Christian majority, that is why we are known as a Christian nation and not because of the constitution?
Momma Angel wrote:djjd62,
Speaking for this Christian, yes, it seems the end times are upon us; however, we don't know the exact time when Christ will return and, until then, we still have to live in this world.
The claim that the end times are upon us has been made since the idea was conceived. Wasn't Paul expecting it during his lifetime?
You mean Paul in the New Testament? I don't believe so. The reason I believe the end times are here is because of the fulfillment of the prophecies. But, I have no clue as to the day or time.
Momma Angel wrote:Mesquite,
I understand that. But, isn't it possible that because the US has a Christian majority, that is why we are known as a Christian nation and not because of the constitution?
That could be, and it could also be the reason that the Treaty of Peace and Friendship (ratified June 7, 1797) included this article.
Quote: Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
The constitution continually acts to protect the nation from both majoritarian as well as minoritarian tyranny. It would be ludicrous to assert that the founders went to so much trouble in that regard, and then would have been content to see christianity institutionalized here, in despite of Muslim, Jew and Pagan. By the same token, no part of their view of a balanced government would have conceived of the prohibition of christianity--all of which should explain, except for the unreasoning fanatic, why there is a wall of separation between church and state.
Momma Angel wrote:
Bella Dea, while I am not fond of being called irrational and stubborn, I will just try to take it that I stick to what I believe in and leave it at that.
Our country was founded on principles yes. The principles of the Bible. That is what I believe. I believe those principles are for all mankind and not just Americans.
No, I don't think taking God off the money or out of the Pledge of Allegiance will make Him disappear. I do believe it is an attack against God and, as a Christian, I will do my best to see that it doesn't happen.
I don't know about it being Christians that want to take over this country. I know I don't want to take over the country. I just would like to see more of the laws God laid out in the Bible followed. Like I said, we all have the right to lobby LEGALLY for those laws. I, in no way, condone bombing abortion clinics, etc., which I believe is in direct conflict with what Christ teaches.
No, actually if the Buddhists wanted to have in Buddha they trust on the money, I wouldn't fight against it because it was unfair to Christians. I would fight it because I believe there is only one True God and I don't believe Buddha is that God.
Next....
Thank you for your response.
By saying you want to "take over the country" I mean, Christians are always trying to force their beliefs on everyone else. Abortion laws, gay marraige laws and now this money issue. All of those issues are religious/moral issues that you've based on your faith and values about what is right and what is wrong. I think that you forcing your faith on me is wrong.
We don't have to answer to anyone but god and we don't answer for anyone other than our selves so why do you people insist on "saving my soul"?
Putting God
onto those things was an attack against
every other religion out there but my point about you wanting it your way or no way was proven since now that some people want it removed, it's now an attack against Christians to take it off, when it didn't belong there in the first place! I think you are being incredibally unfair to every other faith by saying
your god can be on the money but his or her's can't be. How is that not wanting to force your faith on others?
What I want to know is why is it so important to you to have God on money? Sersiously. Remember that little bit about not worshiping false idols? Wouldn't money fall under that catagory? Shouldn't money and God be seperate then?
Bella Dea,
I understand what you are saying and I can see how it feels like force. I can't speak for anyone else Bella Dea, so what I say are strictly my feelings and beliefs.
I guess the "In God We Trust" issue can be looked at in a couple of different ways. For Christians, yes, there is only one True God, so any other entity anyone calls god to us, is false. And, to the other religions, I would imagine this is true for them. They believe in one god? So, I think the ones that are really not being acommodated are the ones that do not believe in God at all. So, to accommodate everyone we would have to change the words. Yes, I see where this is an issue of separation of church and state. Do I mind little changes? Not necessarily. I just don't want to see these little changes of removing God like this become a big change, as I fear it will become someday.
I have never actually asked anyone if In God We Trust means the Christian God to them so I am just doing a bit of guesswork. Is it possible that those that call an entity other than the Christian God consider "In God We Trust" to be their god?
I agree with the separation of church and state up to a point. I have lived with "In God We Trust" on our money and "One Nation Under God" since I have been born, so it's something I am comfortable with and I am a bit resistant to change. I am not saying it is right for it to be there. I am saying it is how I feel and believe. I believe it is one nation under God and In God I do trust.
Isn't it true that you would want certain things made legal? I don't know how you feel about certain issues so I can't speak to those personally. But, if you approve of same sex marriage or the choice of abortion, don't you want the law changed to accomodate those wishes? I have never been for abortion unless in extreme cases of saving the mother's life and I have never believed homosexuality was right. I felt that way before I was a Christian. So, I can't say that it is just because of my Christian faith that I don't want these things to be legal. Yes, they are reinforced by my Christianity, but I felt that way long before I was Christian.
I feel as long as we have the legal right to LOBBY LEGALLY to have the laws as we think they should be, then we all have the same right. I could say that I don't want someone's (not you necessarily) moral, ethical, etc., beliefs forced on me either. I think the difference is, I don't feel like those are being forced upon me. I feel like it's other American citizens exercising their legal right to do the same thing as I am doing. We all have to vote our conscience, whether it be from our religious, moral, ethical, or personal desires standpoint.
I realize there are those factions that believe in the Christianity at all costs method. I'm not one of them. A person's religious or non-religious choice is just that, their choice. I can't save anyone's soul and no other person can save mine. I can tell someone what my beliefs are and why and then it's up to them to decide for themselves what they want to accept or not.
I firmly believe that if all Christians were to act truly Christlike then maybe the world wouldn't have such a problem with our beliefs. I can understand the reluctance of so many because of the history of wars, etc., in the name of Christianity. And trying to force anyone into Christianity is just enforcing those feelings in others. If we all lived by the Beatitudes, I think we'd all be a kindler, gentler people. I know many people that aren't Christian but actually live the Beatitudes. It's not just saying you are a Christian that makes you one. It's living like one. I fear we all fall short in that respect. There have been so many distortions to the message of Christ it is hard for anyone to know the truth anymore.
Momma Angel wrote:
Isn't it true that you would want certain things made legal? I don't know how you feel about certain issues so I can't speak to those personally. But, if you approve of same sex marriage or the choice of abortion, don't you want the law changed to accomodate those wishes? I have never been for abortion unless in extreme cases of saving the mother's life and I have never believed homosexuality was right. I felt that way before I was a Christian. So, I can't say that it is just because of my Christian faith that I don't want these things to be legal. Yes, they are reinforced by my Christianity, but I felt that way long before I was Christian.
Of course I do because I want everyone to be able to choose what they want to do with their lives. What they want to believe. By restricting these things, you are making that choice for them. Why is the life of the mother more important than the child in the case you described? How can you make that distinction? If you don't believe it's right, then don't do it. But why force someone else to believe what you believe? If the law isn't there it gives both sides the right to do as they choose. Support abortion or deny it. Practice gay marriage or don't. With your laws, the only people who win are you.
Of all the problems in the world and in this country, why should the wording on our currency involve anyone outside of the Fed?
Sorry Bella, didn't see that last post until after I posted.
Why is it important? It's important because I don't want to see God removed from anything. It's not just taking it off money, that in itself is not a big deal. But, like I said, it's all the little things adding up.
Bella Dea Wrote:
Quote:Of course I do because I want everyone to be able to choose what they want to do with their lives. What they want to believe. By restricting these things, you are making that choice for them. Why is the life of the mother more important than the child in the case you described? How can you make that distinction? If you don't believe it's right, then don't do it. But why force someone else to believe what you believe? If the law isn't there it gives both sides the right to do as they choose. Support abortion or deny it. Practice gay marriage or don't. With your laws, the only people who win are you.
Understood Bella Dea. But, where do you draw the line on choice? Drugs for instance? This is a choice. Is it a good one? I don't think so. Yes, I agree people should have their choice. But, in the case of abortion, I advocate for the child. I would love to see 0 abortions performed. The abortions for convenience are appalling to me. I can understand someone having one to save the life of the mother, but do I agree with it? No. But, I can understand it.
For me, God is the higher authority. So, yes, I am going to lobby to have the laws as God has given them. I believe the intent is that those laws are for everyone. So naturally, I am going to lobby for those. I guess that's why we have to do the democracy thing. One side lobbies for their wants and needs and the other side lobbies for their wants and needs. That seems to be the fairest way to do it. If same sex marriages become legal, well they are legal in man's eyes. Won't change my view on them in God's eyes.
It's not that I want to take anyone's choice away from them Bella Dea. That is not my motive. My motive is keep God's laws pure because that is the way I believe. I view God completely superior to man. I realize there are many that don't feel that way.
Momma Angel wrote:It's not just taking it off money, that in itself is not a big deal. But, like I said, it's all the little things adding up.
Since when did you say that? This is not "your" thread, it was started by MZPoe . . . your conceit is nearly as disgusting as your pushy supersitition . . .
Setanta,
I WAS NOT referring to the title of this thread. I was referring to this comment I had made (In bold).
Quote:I guess the "In God We Trust" issue can be looked at in a couple of different ways. For Christians, yes, there is only one True God, so any other entity anyone calls god to us, is false. And, to the other religions, I would imagine this is true for them. They believe in one god? So, I think the ones that are really not being acommodated are the ones that do not believe in God at all. So, to accommodate everyone we would have to change the words. Yes, I see where this is an issue of separation of church and state. Do I mind little changes? Not necessarily. I just don't want to see these little changes of removing God like this become a big change, as I fear it will become someday.
Phoenix,
The Bible does not mention abortion per se. This link does explain how I view it:
http://www.gotquestions.org/abortion-Bible.html
Which does not change the fact that, as is your habit, you have charged in here to play the christian soldier, and try to take on the entire debate yourself. It gets tedious because of your little johnny-one-note refrain of "this is what i believe"--we are all familiar, to the extent of tedium, with what you believe . . .
Momma Angel wrote:Why is it important? It's important because I don't want to see God removed from anything. It's not just taking it off money, that in itself is not a big deal. But, like I said, it's all the little things adding up.
What would Mother Theresa do?
Mother Teresa would ignore the brouhaha and do something more consonant with the allegedly christian morality (as though only christians were moral) such as devoting all of her time and resources to helping others . . .
Momma- Exodus 21:22-25 predates Jesus. It was my understanding that, for Christians, the New Testament superseded the Old. When I looked up the Exodus 21:22-25 passage, apparently that is what is being used as a precedent by Christians to vilify the practice of abortion.
What is up with that?
