Moishe wrote:InfraBlue wrote:Moishe wrote:Accepting that Israel is a "bigoted, ethnocentric state," how is it different from the rest of the "bigoted, ethnocentric states" in the Middle East and beyond.
It was imposed by the West for Westerners.
Oh.
Great.
Would you care to be any more obscure?
"the West" would be? Cowboys? Greece? Brazil? The United States? England? All of them combined? Your theory is that the "Western World," which would include most of the planet, from Australia to the Soviet Union, imposed Israel on the Middle East for Ecuadoreans and Icelanders to live in?
Would you care to be any more obtuse?
Quote:Is there some particular reason that in your very erroneous theory that you are reluctant to even write that "the West imposed Israel on the Middle East for the Jews to live in?"
So, your first statement is totally incorrect in both fact and intention.
"Westerners" did not impose Israel upon the Middle East for Westerners to live in.
Westerners did impose Israel upon the Middle East for Westerners, specifically Ashkenazim, to live in.
Quote:The Palestinian Mandate was finally voted upon by a world body called the United Nations, and what was left of the former British Palestinian Mandate was divided up into two sections - one for a Jewish State and one for an Arab State.
Great Britain, which controlled British Palestine, did not not "impose" Israel as a Western State for Westerners. They didn't even "impose" a Western State for Jews.
What Great Britain did do was to impose a blockade to prevent the few hundred thousand remants of European Jewry from emigrating to Israel immediately after these few survivors were liberated from the death camps. Those that did manage to get past the British blockade, which rammed the immigrant ships and turned them back and made them disembark in such places as the former Nazi Germany, what they did do, if these Jews managed to get to British Palestine, was to put them into concentration camps in either old Crusader fortresses or in Cyprus. What Great Britain did do, as it tried to "impose" the Jewish State onto the Middle East was to arrest all the leaders of the Yishuv, the Jewish Agency in British Palestine, most of whom had lived there longer than the British had ruled there, and put them in prison.
The vote to partition Palestine passed at the UN through such tactics as the strong arming of smaller countries. Greece was threatened with cessation of foreign aid if it voted against. It did so anyway. Paraguay, the Philippines, Haiti and others were bullied into changing their votes against.
Quote:Great Britain, the Western power that owned British Palestine, after turning over the decision of what to do with British Palestine to the newly formed United Nations, refused to implement the agreed upon Partition Plan and withdrew its forces from the Mandate, turning every single fotress and remaining armaments over to the Arabs, who pledged to wipe out the Jews who had been living there, legally, for the last fifty years, under both British and Ottoman rule.
Hell of an "imposition."
Great Britain didn't "own" Palestine. It was granted a mandate by the League of Nations.
Quote:Your ignorance is astounding.
What is astounding is your arrogance in assuming the level of my knowledge. What is risible is that your astounding arrogance blinds you to your own ignorance in assuming the level of my knowledge.
Judging from your "Great Britain owning Palestine" comment, you are as blind to your own ignorance as you are to your own bigotry. Pathetic.
Quote:Quote:Quote:What would be helpful is to somehow quantify this "bigoted, ethocentricity" in a way that could be understood as a causitive effect.
Maybe you can run a poll as to how many Israelis would support the granting the Right of Return to the Palestinians, or, run a poll as to how many Israelis would support abandoning Israel's directive to maintain a "Jewish character." You can further quantify the responses along ethnic lines.
Ah. Good. Finally a cogent point.
I would suspect that just as many Israelis favor granting the Right of Return to Arabs as do Yemenis; Iranians; Iraqis; Syrians; Lebanese; Libyans; Moroccans; or Algerians do, or... Germans; Poles; Hungarians; and other Eastern Europeans did, favor granting the Right of Return for Jews.
Or, for that matter, any Arab country in the Middle East, with the exception of Jordan, favors giving the "Right of Return" for the Arabs called Palestinians to any Arab country.
Or, for that matter, any Middle Eastern country such as Turkey or Egypt or Sudan favors giving any "Right of Return" for any peoples such as Greeks; Armenians; Kurds; Libyans; or any other tribal African peoples.
I'd say about the same percentage in all cases.
And, to further quantify along ethnic and religious lines, I would say that a considerably higher percentage of Israelis would support abandoning Israel's directive to maintain a "Jewish character," than would any other surrounding Arab States support abandoning their directive to maintain an "Islamic character."
You're just playing here aren't you? You're not really that uninformed, are you?
I suggest you study Saudi Arabia a bit, if you'd like to understand what a bigoted, ethnocentric State is that kills people for violating its "Islamic character."
What you suspect wouldn't qualify as a quantification of anything, Moishe. A quantification of the bigotry among the peoples of Israel wouldn't involve comparing it to the bigotry among the peoples of other countries. That, once again, would be an argumentum ad populum fallacy, and is a red-herring.
Quote:Quote:Quote:Comparative incidents of "bigoted, ethnocentricity" with the surrounding countries, including the Arabs called Palestinians would be useful.
A comparison would be an argumentum ad populum fallacy as well as a red-herring, because while the surrounding countries may be as, or more, bigoted and, or ethnocentric does not negate the fact that Israel is bigoted and ethnocentric, and that its bigotry and ethnocentrism are a European construct, and that it was imposed by Westerners, and that this is the reason that it is the crux of the conflict between the West and the Middle East.
Ummm... No.
Umm, Yes, your bigotry induced, pathologically addled brain notwithstanding.
Quote:Quote:Quote:I wish you would inform Europe of this belief. They don't seem to hold it with the same fervor as you do.
Again. Comparisons. What other states in the region were "imposed externally by Westerners?"
And are they too colonies of the West?
If not, why not?
The states in the region were created by Westerners to further Western interests.
Well, with the exception of Israel, I actually think you are correct. How about that?
This includes Israel.
Quote:Quote: The other states are not colonies of the West because their populations were and are, by and large, made up of peoples from the area.
Oh? "The area" means? The Middle East? North Africa? Asia? Could you be a bit more specific?
(After all your "West" apparently includes the entire planet.)
My but you do suffer from reading comprehension don't you, Moishe? Do you remember, or even know, the point I made against which you are arguing?
Quote:The "areas" surrounding Israel are all different. The two "areas" that have the largest influx of peoples from outside of their immediate "area," besides Israel, are Lebanon and Egypt.
As far as I know the Armenians in Lebanon, whose numbers total all of four percent of the population of Lebanon, haven't clamored, or perpetrated terrorism to created an ethnocentric state out of Lebanon. Egypt is in Africa. I don't know of any groups there clamoring to create ethnocentric states out of Egypt. And how this even comes close to being crucial to the conflict between the Middle East and the West, I have no idea other than this is just another of your attempts to drag a red-herring through the issue.
Quote:Many of the "areas" surrounding Israel were, at one point, most emphatically "colonies of the West."
The operative phrase here is "at one point." Furthermore, they weren't colonized to create ethnocentric states out of them for the benefit of Westerners, i.e.[read closely now, Moishe] Ashkenazim.
Quote:Quote:Israel was created expressly for Westerners, Ashkenazi Westerners
Back to Point A - same falsehood. Repeating it over and over again does not make it true. Of course, it might be difficult for some people to grasp what the heck it is you are writing about anyway as you seem to really have a problem with the word Jewish. But maybe I am ignorant. Tell me about these Westerners, that the West created Israel for. These, Ashkenazis? Help me understand.
I avoid using the term Jewish and Jews because these terms simplistically imply a monolithic entity, "Jews," that just doesn't exist, and in this way it tends to be used for bigoted purposes. If you don't know who the Ashkenazim are, then what the hell are you doing even trying to participate in these threads? Go read a book.
Quote:Quote:Quote:Yes. We know that's what you think. I still do not understand why you think this. Again, the adjectives do not make a case. They simply say that you hate Israel.
Describing what Israel is is not a statement of hatred. It is a statement of fact. Israel is Western, bigoted and ethnocentric.
Repitition. Try again.
You are beyond trying, Moishe. This is as far as it goes with you. You are a lost cause. I am done responding to your tiresome posts that are little more than red-herrings, logical fallacies, and invective ad hominems. I'm done obliging you and sinking to your level.
