Will the execution of Crips founder be a mistake?

Debra_Law wrote:

Merry Andrew wrote:
Agree totally with y'all. Debra Law is missing the point, which Amigo has expressed quite well. Tookie Williams is an excellent role model precisely because he is a repentant killer. He is an example of the fact that one can turn one's life around, that even a feared former gang leader can become a peacemaker and non-violence advocate. This is the message I try to convey to the gang members I deal with on a daily basis: life is not a one way street. U-turns are allowed and even encouraged. There're a lot of really confused kids out there who think 'in for a penny, in for a pound.' There are those who feel they cannot get out of the violence of the 'hood, because that's all they know. Williams shows them it's not impoossible. Put him to death and you're helping to negate his message, not reinforce it.

He is not a repentant killer. He says he is innocent. Obviously, there is no repenting on his part for the murders of four innocent people. His message (according to Amigo) is that he was wrongfully convicted on the basis of questionable evidence gathered by a corrupt police department.

He turned his life around? He's been sitting behind bars for the last 25 years. Some role model.

What makes you so certain he killed those people?

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Merry Andrew wrote:

roverroad wrote:

By the way Snood, you can't rehabilitate a murderer. The people that he killed don't get a do over, so why should he. Let him rot in prison.

You're saying two different things in the same breath here, Rover.

Point taken, than let me rephrase that to say that it's not worth acknowledging that a murder has been rehabilitated because the victim had to pay the ultimate price for their misdeed. Once they are the slime of the earth they are always the slime of the earth.

And snood, obviously you can't put a j-walker into the same category with murderers and child molesters. Besides, I don't know what the problem is, we are both arguing to keep the sick bastard alive.

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The man claims to have been framed. As Snood says, How do you know he did those murders?

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I'm against the taking of any life, criminal or government sanctioned. I'm particularly opposed to the taking of the life of someone who has dedicated himself to preventing others from following in his footsteps. The idea seems ludicrous.

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A Link On the Rampart Division Scandal(s)

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He say's he is innocent as does every other prison inmate.

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au1929 wrote:

He say's he is innocent as does every other prison inmate.

Have you bothered to research this case at all? Or have you simply fallen on an already-set paradigm of convicted-so-must-be-guilty?

Have you read about how upside-down corrupt the Rampart Division of the LAPD was? Or have you simply circled the wagons with the police on the inside, and everyone in prison on the outside?

RE this issue au1929, are you thinking or just reacting?

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Tookie William's claim to innocence shoots a hole in the argument that he's a repentent killer who has been reformed.

Karla Faye Tucker was a repentent killer who was reformed after 14 years on death row, but she had to pay the ultimate price for her heinous crime nonetheless.

The major difference between Karla and Tookie is that Karla admitted her crime and truly repented whereas Tookie has not.

The major similarity between Karla and Tookie is that the wheels of justice grind so slowly that it sometimes makes us reconsider the merits of the death penalty.

Tookie was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. He has had more than 20 years to explore every avenue of legal due process and yet no court of justice has ever found that his convictions for four murders was wrongful.

The murders took place in 1979. Since then, Tookie has had 26 years of life. His victims didn't have those same years of life because Tookie callously and violently executed them by blowing them apart with the blasts of a shot gun. When Tookie chose to live his life as a violent criminal, he assumed the risk that society would impose the ultimate punishment upon him if he was caught. And, he was caught.

The fact that 26 years have elapsed since the murders does not diminish the outrage that he inflicted upon his victims. None of us want to live in a society where murder goes unpunished. Tookie must be punished for his crimes.

Either we have the death penalty or we don't. If the people of California want to abolish the death penalty because the wheels of justice grind so slowly that it serves little purpose to execute murderers a decade or two after their crimes, it's within their power to do so.

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They didn't find evidence to clear this guy, either.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=63775&highlight=

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au1929 wrote:

He say's he is innocent as does every other prison inmate.

You've spoken to a lot of prison inmates, have you, Au? I have and quite a few of them brag of their (mis)deeds and sometimes boast of the ones they got away with, the ones they were never prosecuted for. A convicted murderer, maintaining his innocence to the last, is often a wrongfully convicted person.

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Merry Andrew: Are you now alleging that it is most likely that Tookie was wrongfully convicted because he claims he is innocent? How is that consistent with your statement that he is a repentent killer?

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Debra_Law wrote:

Merry Andrew: Are you now alleging that it is most likely that Tookie was wrongfully convicted because he claims he is innocent? How is that consistent with your statement that he is a repentent killer?

That would be a separate argument, Debra, not within the scope of this thread, really. I am not arguing the murder conviction one way or the other. I have not seen enough evidence to do so. My whole point is that, guilty or innocent, Tookie Williams is not deserving of capital punishment and that the infliction of such punishment would be counterproductive on more than one level.

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Merry
No however, there are very few guilty people in jail. They are all there because of a miscarriage of justice or crooked police. Just ask them.
I wonder than who is commiting all the crime in this nation. Or perhaps the supposed crime is a figment of our imagination.

Merrry wrote

Quote:

A convicted murderer, maintaining his innocence to the last, is often a wrongfully convicted person.

Do you have any evidence to substantiate that theory.

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Merry wrote

Quote:

Tookie Williams is not deserving of capital punishment and that the infliction of such punishment would be counterproductive on more than one level.

Why. If there is no question of his guilt he most certainly is. As it is he has had 26 years of life that he is not entitled to.

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So all a killer has to do is claim they are innocent and write a few childrens books and everyone falls in love with them. Pretty much everyone in prison says they are innocent and a lot of books are published as a result of the prison system. Are we supposed to let all of them go? I think we should just let the jury system do it's job. DNA and forensics today work wonders for sorting out the guilty from the innocent. Our system works better than most. Only in this case I think they need to be looking at the social ramifications of killing a prisoner with so many followers. Keeping him in prison instead of killing him would be just as good. And I do think it's inapropriate for the prison officials to be putting out press releases in support of his ececution. Public relations isn't part of their job. Anyway, I'm more likely to believe that he did it since he is responsible for founding one of the largest Terrorist groups in the US. That's rite, I said terrorist group.

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I take it no one looked at my link, where a man who claimed to be innocent was executed and then discovered innocent twelve years later. True stories like that put Tookie's story at least within the realm of possibility. You people are saying it can't happen that way, but none of you truly knows.

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I had read the other thread or at least part of it, Edgar. I also take it no one looked at my link. The Rampart Division scandals were a big deal in LA.

I'm not saying he is innocent of the crime. I have no idea. I don't deny it's possible.

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I read your link, osso. People are so dead set on killing the convicted people they don't want to hear contrary facts, I guess.

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Not only did I look at your link, Edgar; I believe I was the first poster to respond to it.

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I know, Merry. We are talking about the ones who say Kill him now, worry about stuff like that later.

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Will the execution of Crips founder be a mistake?

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