joefromchicago wrote:oralloy wrote:Would it be any better if they were hit by a non-incendiary weapon? Say if they were blown apart by a grenade instead?
Never having been scalded to death by white phosphorus or blown apart by a grenade, I cannot speak from experience. I would note, however, that quite a few governments have made a distinction between incendiary and non-incendiary weapons. For instance, Protocol III of the
UN Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons Which May Be Deemed to Be Excessively Injurious or to Have Indiscriminate Effects (CCW)"prohibits, in all circumstances, making the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects, the object of attack by any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat or a combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target.
Obviously, the 86 or so countries that have ratified the CCW think that there's a difference between incendiary and non-incendiary weapons, and decided that burning someone to death is, all things considered, worse than killing them by some more conventional method (I'll add that the US has
not ratified Protocol III, but it has signed onto other parts of the CCW).
So then, by your definition and by the accepted description of the treaty, we can FINALLY agree that White Phosphorus is NOT a chemical weapon, but instead is a CONVENTIONAL WEAPON.
That being said, the entire premise of this bloated thread is just another of 'major's Anti-American screechfests.
I agree that they are horrible weapons.
I agree that they shouldn't be used against anyone, combatant or non combatant.
I am probably one of the few people on this board who has actually seen WP shells when they hit. (I was stationed at Fort Sill, Oklahoma 'Home of U.S. Artillery' where all America's artillerymen are trained.) This is the reason I am so vehement about what category these weapons are classified under.
I was a crewman on a mobile theater level nuclear missile.
Attempting to classify this weapon in the same classification as Nuclear and REAL Chemical Weapons (Sarin GB, Soman GD, VX Diphosgene agents) takes away so much from the horrors that are REAL nuclear/chemical weapons.
This is the same level of desensitization of horror that follows the Bush = Hitler crowd.
These are people who have absolutely NO CLUE at the true horror that Hitler brought to his people and the death he caused and yet by using Bush = Hitler, it dilutes the true crimes and horror that Hitler brought to Earth.
Calling White Phosphorus a chemical weapon takes SO much away from the absolute horror of true chemical weapons and makes it more likely that real weapons of that nature can be used in the future since the attitude of:
"Why shouldn't WE use our Sarin gas on our enemies, the Americans are using chemical weapons in Iraq."
Might happen sooner than you think as a result. TRUST ME on this, you do NOT want to see the effects of REAL chemical weapons. You would rater be burned to death with napalm that face the pain and suffering of real chemical weapons.
They're often classified by their method of action or their use:
Blister agents (vesicants) produce blisters all over your body.
Blood agents prevent tissue cells from using oxygen so that your organs quickly shut down.
Choking agents attack your respiratory system.
Incapacitating agents cause physical or mental incapacitation, such as dizziness, confusion, stupor or coma. One of these agents is Fentanyl, a narcotic used in medicine as an anesthetic and for pain relief. When Russia reportedly used this gas to end a hostage siege in the fall of 2002, nearly 130 hostages died after inhaling it.
Nerve agents, or nerve gases, disrupt proper nerve function. Exposure to these odorless, colorless substances can occur through inhalation, skin contact or ingestion. They cause paralysis or uncontrollable muscle movement, seizures and death by suffocation (asphyxiation). Although many nerve agents are called gases, they're actually liquids that can be released as an aerosol or mixed with other liquids. Atropine, a drug normally used in hospitals to treat cardiac arrest, can be an effective nerve gas antidote. As an antidote, large doses are injected into your leg using a needle called an autoinjector. Atropine is known as a dual-use drug because it has both civilian (medical) and military uses.
Riot control agentsVomiting agents cause severe vomiting.
Chemical weapons are easy to produce but not that easy to use. Their effectiveness is limited by their age and purity, how they're dispersed, quantity and even weather conditions, such as wind direction. They also pose a danger to those attempting to disperse the chemicals.
In contrast to biological weapons, chemical weapons can kill rapidly, often within hours or minutes, and sometimes with just a small drop. Possible protection against chemical weapons includes gas masks, shelters and sealed suits and vehicles. Treatment and antidotes can sometimes help after exposure. If contaminated, you need to flush your eyes and skin immediately for at least five to 10 minutes while awaiting emergency help. Remove contaminated clothing and jewelry.
Some of the most common chemical agents are:
Ricin.Sarin. Sarin (SAH-rin) is a nerve gas that can cause death within minutes of exposure. It enters your body through your eyes and skin and kills by paralyzing the muscles you use for breathing. Signs and symptoms of sarin exposure vary but include a runny nose, watery eyes, dimmed vision, drooling, sweating, difficulty breathing, nausea, twitching and headache. Members of a Japanese cult released sarin in a Tokyo subway in 1995, killing 12 people and injuring thousands.
VX. A nerve agent whose natural state is liquid, VX turns into a gas when exposed to oxygen. Although it's much less volatile than sarin, it's about 10 times more toxic. VX can spread through water or air. It kills within minutes if just a drop touches your skin or you inhale it. VX blocks the transmission of nerve impulses along your central nervous system, causing convulsions, respiratory paralysis and death.
Tabun. Tabun (TA-bun) is a nerve agent that when vaporized has a fruity odor likened to bitter almonds. Both the liquid form, which is absorbed through the skin, and the vapor form, which is inhaled, can be lethal in as little as 15 minutes. Although tabun can be destroyed by its reaction with bleaching powder, that reaction causes another chemical reaction that produces the deadly blood agent cyanogen chloride.
Soman.Mustard gas. This blister agent is a liquid at room temperature, but it can also be dispersed as an aerosol. Inhalation causes burns and blisters, eye irritation and lung damage, including cough, bronchitis and lung failure. It's usually disabling but not lethal unless you're exposed to large, highly concentrated amounts. There's no antidote for mustard gas exposure. Mustard gas is not related to mustard, but its odor has been likened to mustard, horseradish, onions and burning garlic.
Chlorine. Although you probably know it as a strong-smelling disinfectant or as a purifier used in drinking water and swimming pools, chlorine is a choking agent that's corrosive to the skin and eyes, causing burns and blurred vision. Inhaled, chlorine can cause labored breathing and the buildup of fluid in the lungs. Although no antidote exists, survival is possible if treatment begins soon after exposure.
Phosgene. Phosgene is a choking agent. When released into the air as a gas, it forms a white cloud and smells like newly mown hay or green corn. If inhaled at high concentrations long enough, it causes severe breathing problems and fatal lung congestion. Like chlorine, there's no antidote, but survival is possible with quick treatment.
Hydrogen cyanide. Hydrogen cyanide is a blood agent that starves tissues of oxygen. At normal temperatures, it's a colorless gas whose smell is likened to bitter almonds. Exposure irritates your eyes, skin and respiratory tract. Inhalation of high concentrations can cause death within minutes.
These are just a few of the TRUE chemical weapons, please don't make the mistake of confusing a nasty conventional weapon with a true weapon of horror like chemical weapons.
I think your idea does not compute with the americans. They don't get it. But yes, I like the idea of an animated Hummer with eyebrows - what do you think, y'all? It'd be just hilarious to watch that Willie Pete, maybe drawn/animated as a big tall white guy with a corncob pipe and a No Fear t-shirt, raining that stuff down on those evil Iraqi people! In fact, it'd make a great video game for the american brats who just love that ****. They could tally up how many women and kids (babies too) that they kill on their video screen......who can rain the WP the fastest before those women and kids reach safety? Great game idea. I bet Hasbro will pick it up.
