History Mysteries

Reply Wed 7 May, 2003 08:59 pm
What I would like to know is what happened to the ancient tribes of Chazars (not sure about the English spelling). They were large and highly civilized tribes in what is today Ukraine and Russia, in the Baltic region, if I remember correctly. There was a dictionary published by M. Pavic called The Chazari Dictionary. It had three books: jewish, islamic, and christian, with the same words explained from 3 perspectives. he used mostly historic documents and used the wide gaps in historiography and spiced it up with a bit of imagination. but still. there was this vast nation (not to be confused with today Khazars of Afghanistan) that has just vanished, nobody knows where to exactly or why. Anybody heard of any more research on the topic?
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Walter Hinteler
Reply Wed 7 May, 2003 11:56 pm

This bibliography of Khazar Studies should really do some help :wink:

An outstanding academic bibliography on the Khazars
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Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 07:00 am
Right, Mr. Stillwater. It seems to me that I remember something about a theory that suggested Marlowe had been killed in a bar room brawl, and that the Bard had usurped his writings. Well, whoever he was, he was one helluva writer. Smile

Dag, didn't know one thing about your query, but like Tiger Wood, Walter is king of the links, and Phoenix is the absolute queen; HOWEVER, I still cannot find the author to the short story "How Beautiful are they Feet Wearing Shoes"..GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. I suppose that's one that will forever remain a mystery.
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the prince
Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 07:13 am
Or the song of India Letty !!
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Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 07:32 am
Oh, my word, Gautam.


We need the lyrics to The Song of India.

So many classical pieces suffered at the hands of the lyricists, but Korsakov's piece was not one of them.
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Walter Hinteler
Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 07:50 am
This is the automatic ansering maschine of Walter's research studio.
Unfortunately we can't find your receipt for the costs per inquiry ... .

Seriously, I can write Nicolai Rimsky-Korsakov, know a little bit about him and his music, but lyrics?

Besides, there are none of the 'Song of India' online, well-informed circles told me. :wink:
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Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 08:18 am
Very Happy Laughing Smile Razz

Right, Walter. Everyone wants us to buy stuff....DRAT!

Darn, Gautam. I remember the lyrics to:

"Full Moon and Empty Arms"--Rachmananov
"I'm Always Chasing Rainbows"--Chopin

It seems that I can always remember things not worth remembering Rolling Eyes
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Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 08:22 am
Embarrassed Can't remember how to spell Russian last names, either.
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the prince
Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 08:29 am
Letty - have you tried this page ?


I can't seem to access it from work !
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Walter Hinteler
Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 08:51 am

I know from that site that they don't know the lyrics either.
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Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 09:06 am
Evil or Very Mad The more we progress, the faster we fall behind.

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Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 10:05 am
History Mysteries
I've listened to Song of India many times but have never heard it with lyrics. I think you're on a wild goose chase.
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Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 10:12 am
Bob, That could be true, but THERE ARE LYRICS TO THAT SONG. When I moved from Virginia, I lost so many of my piano books, but I remember that in a book of Old Favorites, the lyrics were there.In a google search, someone was asking about those lyrics, also, so they do exist.
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Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 09:10 pm

Gautam, got 'em, albeit not all:

My heart lies back where Indian waters flow,
It keeps on telling me that I should go
Back to my love, in far off India.

Once neath tropic skies a pair of eyes were so fair,
and, within their glance I found romance lying there.

Yippee...I knew that I didn't dream it.
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Reply Thu 8 May, 2003 10:49 pm
Hey ho, Letty and all. Rare I have a moment for these forums so I thought I'd come to some Letty threads. History's mysteries is a likeable subject for sure. What happened to Ambrose Bierce? (Was someone collecting Ambroses... (now who said that? Think it was Charles Fort...) Who or what sank the Maine? (Recent research exhonerates the Spanish, y'know...) Why do we blame the poor innocent cow for the Chicago fire? (Observation tells me whenever we blame the mindless or inanimate, there's something being suppressed...) And who put the overalls in Mrs. Murphy's chowder? Many a sleepless night ensues as these questions worry at our fevered brains...

About history I was a bit of a dunce when I was a youngster. (This is common, I'm told. The younguns all think the universe popped into existence at their own birth...) My interest, however was peaked by a great experimental history course I was subjected to in Westchester, when I was in high school. The idea was to teach history from eighth to senior year linearly. Eighth grade was devoted to prehistory (what was known of the seed trading cities, the birth of language... all that often conjectural but interesting stuff), then came the civilizations of the Ganges, Sumeria, Egypt... linearly, like I said. That didn't get us to American History til eleventh grade, something that didn't make the more conservative parents very happy. I'm very glad I had this exposure... the course was brilliantly conceived.

After that I kind of got stuck in a rut, interested more in the political history of my own century. It wasn't until about ten years ago that I began poking around in Greek, Roman, Middle European and Chinese History. My most interesting recent historical revelations came about because I got addicted to Patrick Obrien's Aubrey/Maturin novels. Never thought I'd find much interest in England during the Napoleonic wars... shows what a great writer can do to your mind...
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the prince
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 02:42 am
Letty, it i snow becoming an obsession with me !! I have sent an email to a pal of mine in Russia to see if he can dig up something there !!
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Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 04:40 am
Squeedle, Shocked

Another mystery resolved. Great to see you, my friend. There's a great thread somewhere on here about Ambrose by a neat guy from Tampa.
Good luck with your music, Squeedle...(luck, of course, has nothing to do with it. Smile )

In the mean time, I'll check out Mrs. O'Leary's cow, and Mrs. Murphy's chowder.
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Reply Tue 27 May, 2003 07:09 pm
Now Letty! How could I have neglected to raise the subject of the Drowned Squadron. A Floridian, you must recall; it happened just about ten years ago. A team of hi tech gold hunters with fancy minisubs located a squadron of world war two planes. All sitting on the bottom of some pretty deep water, still in V formation. Strangely intact. Like they'd just decided to land there, twelve miles offshore. Do you recall this?

If you do, it might interest you to know I met the hi-tech gold hunters. They were working for Mel Fisher at that time. Alas I do not recall the name of the head of their operation, but he was an interesting dude. He and his wife built minisubs and remote submersibles. They didn't find much gold, but the plane discovery ended up making them a lot of money... though I'm not sure how.

Anyway... there's one jaw stroker of a historical mystery.
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Reply Tue 27 May, 2003 09:49 pm
Decmber 5, 1945 Flight 19 disappeared 5 Avenger aircraft followed by the disappearance of a PBY search plane looking for them.
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Reply Tue 27 May, 2003 10:05 pm
Pilot Error

Fort Lauderdale, Florida
December 5, 1945

The disappearance of Flight 19, a training flight of five Avenger torpedo bombers flying out of Fort Lauderdale, Florida on December 5, 1945, was the key event in the birth of the Bermuda Triangle legend. Over the ensuing 55 years, claims have been made that the men of this flight were kidnapped by UFOs or flew through some sort of time or space warp. What really happened to Flight 19?

Avenger torpedo bombers were used very effectively during World War Two. They could carry either one standard torpedo or a one-ton bomb. They could operate from an airfield or from an aircraft carrier and were used effectively against Japanese warships. They carried a three-man crew consisting of a pilot, a gunner, and a radioman.

At the end of World War Two, Fort Lauderdale Naval Air Station was one of the places where Avenger pilot training was taught, and part of the training was something called "Navigation Problem No. 1." This problem consisted of the following:

Depart Fort Lauderdale 27 degrees 03 minutes north and 80 degrees 07 minutes west. Fly 091 degrees (east)for 56 miles to Hens and Chicken Shoals, 22 miles north of Bimini in the Bahamas for low-level bombing practice. After bombing, continue 091 degrees for 67 miles.
Fly 346 degrees (northwest) for 73 miles.
Fly 241 degrees (southwest) 120 miles back to Fort Lauderdale.
"Navigation Problem No. 1" was not difficult. It was a routine exercise in flying to a target, dropping bombs, and returning to base.
The crew lists of the five Avengers scheduled to fly this training exercise were:

FT. 28 Lt. C.C. Taylor, USNR
G.F. Devlin, AOM3c, USNR
W.R. Parpart, ARM3c, USNR

FT. 36 Capt. E.J. Powers, USMC
H.Q. Thompson, Sgt., USMCR
G.R. Paonessa, Sgt., USMC

FT. 117 Capt. G.W. Stivers, USMC
R.P. Gruebel, Pvt., USMCR
R.F. Gullivan, Sgt., USMC

FT. 81 2nd Lt. F.J. Gerber, USMCR
W.E. Lightfoot, Pfc., USMCR

FT. 3 Ens. J.T. Bossi, USNR
A.H. Thelander, S1c, USNR
B.E. Baluk, JR., S1c, USNR

FT. 81 was one man short because Marine Corporal Allen Kosner had asked to be excused from the exercise. All of the pilots were qualified navy pilots, with an average of 300 hours flight time. This was a VTB Type Advanced Training exercise. They were not beginners, but advanced students.
The instructor for the flight was Lt. Charles Carroll Taylor, who had recently transferred to Ft. Lauderdale from Miami. This was his first flight on this training course, but he was a seasoned pilot with over 2,000 hours flight time. He had spent 10 months flying combat missions in the South Pacific.

Sequence of Events

Flight 19 was scheduled to take off at 1:45, but Lt. Taylor was late in arriving at the briefing room. When he did arrive, at 1:15, he went to the duty officer and asked to be relieved. However, there was no one else to take his place, and his request was denied.

All five planes of Flight 19 were in the air at 2:10. They made the flight to Hens and Chicken Shoals as planned. They practiced dropping bombs, taking turns making low-level passes at the target. At 3:00 they proceeded to fly the 67 miles of the second part of this leg of the flight. A fishing boat skipper saw them flying east.

At about 3:45, another flight instructor, Lt. Robert Cox, picked up a transmission on 4805 kilocycles. The speaker was asking someone named Powers what his compass showed and made the statement:
I don't know where we are. We must have got lost after that last turn.
Although the speaker did not identify himself, it is likely that it was Lt. Taylor. It would seem that either Taylor's compass had failed or that he had become disoriented and did not believe his and Powers' compass readings.

Lt. Cox radioed Ft. Lauderdale and alerted them that a ship or plane was lost. He then tried to contact the speaker on 4805 kilocycles. He was unable to do so for several minutes. There was a lot of static on that frequency, plus interference from a Cuban radio station. Finally, at about 4:21, he received a response:
This is FT-28. Both my compasses are out and I'm trying to find Fort Lauderdale. I'm over land but it's broken. I'm sure I'm in the Keys, but I don't know how far down...

Lt. Cox radioed Ft. Lauderdale and alerted them that a ship or plane was lost. He then tried to contact the speaker on 4805 kilocycles. He was unable to do so for several minutes. There was a lot of static on that frequency, plus interference from a Cuban radio station. Finally, at about 4:21, he received a response:
This is FT-28. Both my compasses are out and I'm trying to find Fort Lauderdale. I'm over land but it's broken. I'm sure I'm in the Keys, but I don't know how far down...
Here the extent of Taylor's disorientation becomes clear. Not only does he believe they are off-course, but he believes that they are many miles to the southwest, over the Florida Keys. Since Cox doesn't know their flight plan, then he has no reason to question Taylor's assertion that they are over the Keys. In truth, the "broken land" that Taylor reports is most likely the Bahamas. If Flight 19 had truly been over the Keys, they should have been able to see the Florida mainland.

Taking Taylor at his word, Cox tells him:
Put the sun on your port wing if you're in the Keys and fly up the coast until you get to Miami. Then Fort Lauderdale is 20 miles farther…what is your position? I'll fly south and meet you.

Taylor radioed back:
I know where I am now. I'm at 2300 feet. Don't come after me.

A few minutes later, at 4:25, Taylor radioed again:
We have just passed over a small island. We have no other land in sight.

Can you have Miami or someone turn on their radar and pick us up? We don't seem to be getting far. We were out on a navigation hop, and on the second leg I thought they were going wrong. I took over and was flying them back to the right position. But I'm sure now that neither one of my compasses is working.

Cox had turned and flown south because that's where he thought Flight 19 was, but as he got south of Miami, the transmissions from Flight 19 got weaker. To compound the problems, Cox's transmitter began to malfunction, and he could not transmit to Taylor.

Flight 19 was still flying north because Taylor believed they were south of Florida. The weather was getting worse. They were beginning to see whitecaps on the ocean below.

Port Everglades station was able to transmit, and at 4:45 they instructed Taylor to switch to 3000 kilocycles and to fly due west. Meanwhile, they were trying to get a fix on Flight 19, which was difficult because of the interference on 4805 kilocycles.

At 5:00, these statements were heard:
If we would just fly west, we would get home. And Dammit, if we would just fly west, we would get home.

5:07, Taylor to Flight 19:
Change course to 90 degrees for 10 minutes.

5:09, unidentified:
How long have we gone now? Let's turn and fly east two degrees. We are going too damn far north instead of east. If there is anything we wouldn't have seen it.

5:11, unidentified:
You didn't get far enough east. How long have we been going east?

5:15, Taylor to Port Everglades:
I receive you very weak. We are now flying 270 degrees.

5:16, Taylor to Port Everglades:
We will fly 270 degrees until we hit the beach or run out of gas.

But by then it was too late. They had flown so far east that they didn't have enough fuel to make it back to the mainland.

5:22, Taylor:
When the first man gets down to ten gallons of gas, we will all land in the water together. Does everyone understand that?

Port Everglades continued to ask Taylor to change his radio to 3000 kilocycles. He refused, apparently believing that if he changed frequency that he would not be able to talk to the other planes in Flight 19:
I cannot change frequency. I must keep my planes intact.

At 6:00, Port Everglades was finally able to obtain a fix on Flight 19. They were north of the Bahamas and East of New Smyrna, Florida. They were halfway up the East Coast of Florida! If Flight 19 had been aware of their position at this time, then it's possible that Taylor would have abandoned his idea that they must fly east and they could have still made the mainland to the west before they ran out of fuel. However, the teletypes were out and no transmission of that fix was made to other stations. No one gave the fix to Taylor because no station was in direct contact with him at that time.

6:15, unidentified:
…We are over the Gulf. We didn't go far enough east… I suggest we fly due east until we run out of gas. We have a better chance of being picked up close to shore…

The last transmission from Flight 19 was at 6:44. Still on 4805 kilocycles, FT-3's call signal was heard. The Navy Board of Investigation report stated that Flight 19's fuel should have kept them airborne until approximately 8:00.

What happened to Flight 19? Why did a routine training flight go so wrong?

Much has been made of Taylor's claim that his compass was malfunctioning. But did his compass malfunction, or did he simply refuse to believe it? He had the late afternoon sun to tell him which way to fly. He insisted on believing that they were in the Gulf of Mexico, that they had to fly east to reach the mainland. He was extremely disoriented and not thinking clearly. Later investigation showed that they were actually right on course when he first claimed that they were lost. If his disorientation was the beginning of the problem, then his refusal to change radio frequencies sealed Flight 19's fate. If he had switched to the emergency channel the first time he was asked, a fix could have been obtained much sooner and he could have been convinced to fly due west with plenty of fuel and daylight left to reach the mainland.

Perhaps someday Flight 19 will be found on the bottom of the ocean east of New Smyrna, Florida.
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