The real reason for Anti-americanism: Israel.

Any Jew or Israeli who puts his/her hopes for the future in the hands of American conservatives is a goddam idiot. Mind you, I do not mean the person is merely stupid -- the person is a goddam idiot. Stupid does not do the job.

In any case, I understand the impulse to impute anti-Semitism or anti-Zionism to legitimate disagreements with Israeli policy -- but to suggest that most of what is perceived as the new anti-Semitism is hidden in honest and reasonable disagreement, is disingenuous.

Jews now seem to expect to be hated -- and as we all know, often we set up self-fulfilling prophecies and expectations. And as we also know -- Pogo said it best: We have found the enemy -- and it is us.

The Rabbis are correct, when they state ( as they have recently in the Press ), "When all else fails, they'll blame the Jews".

correction

"When all else fails, they'll blame us of anti-semitism"

The only thing they will acomplish while doing so is that the word anti-semitism becomes a hollow insult.

That kind of thinking is a large part of the problem.

You get what you expect to get.

So, Frank proves the point New Haven made...
Who is to blame for Jews being beaten, murdered and synagogues being torched?

The Jews, of course.

Rape victims can no longer take their rapists to court. After all, they wouldn't have been raped if they didn't dress that way, weren't out after dark, weren't weak women...

Refusing to believe/admit anti-Semitism exists makes it alot easier to practice it.

The article by Melanie Phillips was based on alot of facts, which I have read elsewhere, and resulting opinion--much of which, I believe to be true.

Sofia

Perhaps you will be so kind as to point out how I proved that bizarre and utterly absurd point!

Jews now seem to expect to be hated -- and as we all know, often we set up self-fulfilling prophecies and expectations. And as we also know -- Pogo said it best: We have found the enemy -- and it is us.
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This is how you did it. If the Jews would just stop expecting it, it would all go away.

This type of thinking is dangerous. Instead of blaming the Jews for what is being done to them, we should hold their attackers responsible for what they are doing and accept the truth about what is happening.

Jews do not expect to be hated more now, they expect to be hated because they always have been hated. Jews have been members of a race that, similiar to Black people, have been met with fear and therefore used as scapegoats. History tells us so.

My point with that comment, Sofia, was that perhaps some of the supposed "hate is not hate at all.

QUESTION: Do you suppose I hate Jews? Do you suppose that is what is happening here -- that I am expressing anti-Semitism? Do you suppose that I am a part of what you perceive to be anti-Semitism and and "increase" in anti-Semitism?

QUESTION: Do you suppose I hate Jews? Do you suppose that is what is happening here -- that I am expressing anti-Semitism? Do you suppose that I am a part of what you perceive to be anti-Semitism and and "increase" in anti-Semitism?
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I haven't supposed anything about you. I make an attempt to form my opinions of people by their words and actions. Haven't equated anything you have said to anti-Semitism.

I looked in on this thread out of interest in the title, and when I saw the thoughts that were being shared, it was important to me to add my thoughts. You have responded to them, and that is why I have continued my aspect of this topic.

The fact that you (and many others across the world) seem to prefer to step over the issue of anti-Semitism, and keep referring to extraneous issues is a source of personal concern for me. I do wonder why people do that--bring up Israel--when the issue is personal attacks on Jewish people, and an increase in these attacks. I think anti-Semitism and criticism of the state of Israel are two completely different things.

Someone asked if anti-Semitism is like racism or Arabophobia (a funny word for racism against Arabs.) Yes. It's all racism. And, it's all wrong.

What concerns me about people who 'change the subject' of racism against Jews is that this avoidance or refusal to acknowledge racism against Jews makes fertile soil for others to hate Jews openly. Like Melanie Phillips said in the article, polite society can sit around at cocktail parties, making racial slurs against Jews...polite laughter, no dissenting voice...it turns into an approved chorus....approved mistreatment ....approved, open bias....approved discrimination.... approved hatred, revulsion, violence.

So, no, I haven't seen anything you have said that 'crosses the line' of racism. If you had, I would have said so. I think the one statement I have written about your posts on this thread is that I thought they were dangerous. And, that is what I think for the reasons in the preceding paragraph.

Sofia,

Often the rise in anti-semetism (yes, the rise folks, there HAS been a rise) is used as a red herring. It's used to somehow disparage the EU's stance on the Isreal/Palestine conflict.

I find it odd that on a topic that is talking about the conflict that you claim the real issue is the rise in anti-semetism. I do not understand what criteria you are using. The Isreal/Palestine conflict also saw an increase in hostilities deaths etc. The renewed conflict is obviously one of the reasons for the rise in hate crimes against Jews in Europe etc.

What makes no sense is to say that the rise in hate crimes in Europe (which rarely results in death) is the main issue while distracting from the issue in teh mid east (which causes deaths regularly).

Why are the hate crimes (the symptom) the issue and the conflict in the mideast (the disease) not much more important?

I think "Jews expect to be hated" is a red herring. The real problem is that neither side in the Israel vs. Palestine issue is in the right. Both have behaved stupidly and often atrociously. It would be hard to be "hate Jews" without "hating Palestinians" if you are a reasonable person in the mood to hate someone. I agree with what Frolic suggests: accusations of anti-Semitism are as much to be feared as anything. Too often those who criticize Israel are so labelled, which is irresponsible at best. Our country has been wrong to take the Israeli side, increasing expectations in Israel and enraging Arabs who are no less aware of injustice than we are. We should have played an even hand from the beginning.

As Sofia says, all racism is wrong (though I might use a stronger word) and in part because we are a country made up of dozens of races, we've got it going on around us all day every day. It's something we need to make an extra effort to get over. Jews expecting anti-Semitism? Not among my friends. Seeing it, knowing it historically, yes, but not expecting it.

In my first post, I admitted I wasn't addressing anyone here, but I felt compelled to make my remarks on this thread.

I expected no one would respond, because my remarks weren't exactly on topic, but my remarks did get some responses, which is why the seperate issue of individualized anti-Semitism has been discussed.

I wanted to share my concerns about the rise in anti-Semitism. I am afraid of what I see happening in this world toward Jews. I wanted others to know some of the facts, and consider the ramifications.

Consider this, if you will. Palestinians and Arabs aren't being attacked around the world at a rate even approaching attacks on Jews. If Israel and Palestinians are equally to blame in their crisis, and if the Israeli/Pal warring is the reason Jews are being attacked--shouldn't it go both ways? Or at least be close?

This is why I believe that the Israel/Pal conflict is not the reason anti-Semitic attacks are going through the roof-- it is a convenient excuse for anti-Semites to use when they carry out attacks they are predisposed to carry out. 30% of Europeans polled have very negative feelings/views about Jews. That's a pretty serious statistic.

As for 'red herrings'. I am also concerned about popular, political verbage like this, which seems to free people from considering something. If someone says, "Hey. I'm worried about anti-Semitism." I'd hate to think someone would dismiss it out of hand, because the media or whoever has deemed this a red herring. Regardless of the EU's opinion about Sharon or Israeli politics, anti-Semitism is alive and well and dangerous, IMO.

I will back out of the conversation, and let you guys get to the point.

Excuse my interjection.

No, this is a "leap of faith" that disconsiders logical reasoning. The conflict can be a catalyst but there are, of course, circumstantial factors not the least of which is the fact that while there is animosity on both sides one side has the upper hand. The "underdogs" are more likely to lash out.

Mr Sharon just said that he would remove settlements as a compromise for peace.

I've long suspected that Sharon, a man who has fought Arabs all his life, is, in his old age, a bit more interested in a legacy.

Kudos to Mr. Sharon and may we all get a chance to see him back that statement up (as well as see Bush realize his deadline).

"I feel that the rational need to reach a settlement is overcoming my feelings/emotions (I can't remember)"

Sharon seems to be preparing for a renewed focus on the mideast. Regardless of whether he really will do an about face on the "illegal" (as defined by Isreal) settlements the good news is that he seems to think the US will focus on this after Iraq.

I hope he makes a promise, Sharon is saying he'll consider it but no promise yet. The Likud will want to kill him and lets see if he can pull this off without destroying his coalition government.

Good! I am not an anti-Semite by any means. Neither am I anti-Israel.






You have got to be kidding me!!!??? You are charging that I seem to prefer to step over the issue of anti-Semitism???

I am here discussing it with you! In great detail if you choose.

I have in the past tried to side-step discussing the issue of anti-Semitism with Jews -- because I, like so many other non-Jews, absolutely hate the idea that at some point in discussions of this topic with Jews, if we truly share our feelings about the rights/wrongs, pros/cons of the subject, we will more than likely be charged with anti-Semitism by the Jew -- because in order to discuss the rights and wrongs, pros and cons -- sometimes you must find fault with Israel and with Jews -- and that seems to be intolerable to most Jews.

Doing so seems to be adequate reason for many Jews to level a charge of anti-Semitism -- which was the point of what I said earlier.

In any case, I am not side-stepping discussion of the issue here -- and your charges that I am are laughable.

You really ought to apologize for this error and let's get on with the discussion -- if you choose to persue it.

Yes, I think Sofia may have gone too far. One might want to consider the effect the use of the phrase "anti-Semite" has on those (some of them Jews) who feel grief, not hate, when they observe Israel's recent history of aggression and self-aggrandizement, and who are nonetheless taunted with "anti-Semitism." There is a parallel with those who have been bedevilled over the years with "anti-American" for not supporting their country's aggression and self-aggrandizement. As a result of sheer overuse, "anti-Semitism" is losing its stink of oppression and holocaust and has acquired the odor of "my way or the highway."

Frank-- please note my choice of words..."SEEM to prefer". I try to be very careful with my assumptions.

I used the phrase "step over", because Frank brought up Israel, when I was speaking to the individualized attacks on Jews. He didn't discuss the rise of violent personal attacks on Jewish people, but brought up Israeli policies.

However, I never accused Frank or anyone of anything--so, I am confused about where Tartarin or anyone feels that my opinion has "gone too far".

Had I accused someone of anti-Semitism, that would have been going too far.

Anywho-- I have shared what was important to me, and as I said previously-- will bow out of the conversation, so interested parties may discuss their points.

Wanted to make sure Tartarin knows I didn't accuse anyone of anti-Semitism. Accusations of any brand of racism are very serious, and should never be made lightly. I would never do such a thing, as I agree with the prevailing opinions here --that knee-jerk accusations dilute justified charges of anti-Semitism.

Sofia

In remarks addressed to me, you wrote: "The fact that you (and many others across the world) seem to prefer to step over the issue of anti-Semitism..."

Now you are trying to make a big deal out of the fact that you said "...SEEM to..."

Well, my objection to this statement still stands.

Where do you get off telling me that I am trying to "step over" a subject and issue that I am showing a GREAT DEAL OF INTEREST in discussing.

NOTHING I have said indicates any kind of reluctance at all to deal with the "issue of anti-Semitism" and damn near everything I've said SEEMS to indicate that I am especially anxious to discuss it.

Why not take the opportunity to practice a bit of acknowledgment of being wrong here, Sofia --- because you are completely wrong on this point.

And if you can get past this silly attempt to justify what you wrote in this regard, perhaps we can actually engage in some discussion of the issue.