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The real reason for Anti-americanism: Israel.

 
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Apr, 2003 07:34 am
People,

Attacking Israel (with arguments and words) has nothing to do with racial/religious profiling. Just like attacking Saudi-Arabia for its non-democratic government and its violation of human rights has nothing to do with attacking the Islam.

How can someone be antisemitic when he admires Chomsky or Spielberg but disrespects Sharon?

Face reality: Israel violates all the international agreements and they are protected by the US. As long as Israel doesn't have to face the consequences of their policy regarding the Palestinians the US will be distrusted by the mojarity of the Arabs. And their will be no peace in the Middle East.
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 04:32 pm
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badpenny
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 04:57 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
Isreal. I understand why (security concerns + effectiveness of the practice in their case) but found cav's post ironic.

Excellent comment. Interesting that I initially assumed you were taking exception with the practice rather than simply acknowledging that it is done. I'll have to watch how I take what you write...

- Penny for your thoughts...
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 05:43 pm
http://www.cartoonweb.com/images/attackiraq/attackiraq29.gif
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New Haven
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 05:44 pm
Frolic:

Quote:
especially only for the reason of non-Americans having a "homeland" . We should focus on "our own



Are you opposed to the idea of American Jews returning to the land of Israel..."The right of return"?
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New Haven
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 05:57 pm
Is there some reason for the sudden rise in anti-semitism in the USA, especially in the la-la land of California?
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 05:57 pm
Israel is a reality and we have to face reality. So if a US jew wants to become a citizen of Israel, or any other country in the world. He is free to do so. I dont think many US Jews are waiting for the moment to move to Israel. But in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and many other countries millions of Palestinians are waiting to go back to their houses they were forced out to by the Israeli army.

Dont they have the right to return to their houses?
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 06:02 pm
New Haven wrote:
Is there some reason for the sudden rise in anti-semitism in the USA, especially in the la-la land of California?


Tell me, why ends every discussion about the atrocities commited by Israel and the rights of the Palestinian people in a discussion about anti-semitism?
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badpenny
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 06:04 pm
New Haven wrote:
Is there some reason for the sudden rise in anti-semitism in the USA, especially in the la-la land of California?

Yes. Anti-semitism, like all bigotry, is a shortcut to actual thought, a lazy-man's point of view. California is full of liberals, and liberals don't like to think.

"Why don't they like to think, you ask?"

Because thinking inevitably leads them to conservative points of view.
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 06:13 pm
badpenny wrote:
New Haven wrote:
Is there some reason for the sudden rise in anti-semitism in the USA, especially in the la-la land of California?

Yes. Anti-semitism, like all bigotry, is a shortcut to actual thought, a lazy-man's point of view. California is full of liberals, and liberals don't like to think.

"Why don't they like to think, you ask?"

Because thinking inevitably leads them to conservative points of view.


But isn't Anti-semitism of the same category like racism, xenofobism and Arabfobism?

And isn't it more a conservative way of thinking to distrust everything foreign, strange and unusual?

Were the Nazis not extremely conservatists? They were against Homosexuality, against abortion, against mixed marriages,...
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 06:35 pm
Taken from comments during the discussion of a House of Representatives resolution urging Europe to address growing anti-Semitism. Bolds are mine. June 2002.

Mr. LANTOS. Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to yield 6 minutes to the gentleman from New York (Mr. Crowley), my good friend, our distinguished colleague, and the author of this important resolution.

Mr. CROWLEY. Mr. Speaker, I rise today in support of my resolution, ÐH. Res. 393, which calls on European governments to address the rise of anti-Semitism throughout the continent of Europe. I introduced this bill because I am concerned that Europe is on the verge of another Kristallnacht. Anti-Semitism, accompanied by, in many cases by violence, is at the highest levels since the horrors of World War II. According to the British Daily Telegraph, more than 2,000 anti-Semitic incidents were reported throughout the European Union in the last 10 months, more than 18 every single day.

As I have listened very intently to my good friend from New Jersey who just came back from Europe and talking about the rise of anti-Semitism, not only in Europe, but in the United States and Canada, it is ugly wherever it raises its head.

We must keep in mind, we do not share a similar history when it comes to dealing with the issue of anti-Semitism. We all know what the history of Europe has been.

Among the most recent incidents on March 30, two yeshiva students from New Jersey were brutally beaten on the streets of Berlin in an anti-Semitic attack.

On April 11, 15 hooded attackers assaulted a Jewish teenage soccer team in Bondy, France, with sticks and metal bars while yelling anti-Semitic remarks.

On April 27, a synagogue in a London suburb was desecrated by vandals, who painted swastikas on the walls and destroyed religious articles.

Two synagogues in Belgium were firebombed earlier this year.

Also in Belgium, two Hasidic Jews in Antwerp were attacked ferociously as a chorus of teenage attackers spat on them, chanting "dirty Jew" and praising Hitler. One of the two men had just emerged from the hospital a few days later when his 10-year-old daughter was also attacked by assailants chanting a chorus of anti-Semitic remarks. The girl now walks to and from school with an escort.

Anti-Semitism is clearly on the rise. The French government reported 320 anti-Semitic incidents in 2001, almost one per day. But this year French Jewish organizations reported over 300 incidents in the month of April alone.

Jewish cemeteries have been vandalized, a kosher butcher shop near Toulouse was the target of a drive-by shooting, and the Or Aviv Synagogue in Marseille was burned to the ground by arsonists during the Passover holiday.

Not every European government faces a rash of anti-Semitism. Norway, for example, has experienced few hate crimes directed at Jews, and Prime Minister Bondevik made it clear his government will forcefully prosecute any anti-Semitic attacks.

Other governments have taken only minor steps to address anti-Semitism. France, for example, has increased the police presence at major Jewish sites in the aftermath of several attacks. They just this week established a 24-hour hotline for the Jewish community, and they have also appointed a liaison between the French government and the French Jewish community.

But such steps are few and far between, and, in my opinion, do not go far enough. European governments have done little to punish the perpetrators of such attacks, or, more importantly, they have done little to foster an atmosphere in which Jews and other minority groups can live free from harassment as normal members of their societies.

Indeed, several senior European officials have made their anti-Semitism clear and demonstrated that their bigotry affects government policies. Extremist xenophobes like Haider in Austria and Le Pen in France have made hatred and intolerance the basis of their party's political platforms. Le Pen made it into a runoff race for the presidency of France. While he did not win, his base of support in France remains strong.

France no longer appears to be guided by the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man, the foundation for French democracy, which called for equal rights for all. Daniel Bernard, the French ambassador in London, recently referred to Israel with an obscenity when he attributed all the troubles in the Middle East to Israel. When his remarks were reported in the press, Ambassador Bernard refused to apologize and the foreign ministry refused to censure him.

Bernard's remarks, made at a fashionable dinner party in London, demonstrate that the World Jewish Congress was correct when it asserted that anti-Semitism is no longer considered unacceptable in European polite society. European governments must demonstrate that such attitudes are simply not acceptable.

In the years before World War II, the fabric of European society was torn apart by the official anti-Semitism of Nazi Germany and its puppet governments in France, Austria, Poland and elsewhere.

Now, more than 60 years later, European governments are once again doing little to discourage intolerance and hatred directed at Jews and other minority groups. When their rights are trampled upon, European governments must step up and act in order to protect all citizens. The failure to properly condemn and control these attacks makes the governments of Europe complicit in them
*********************************
What chilled me even more was what I have suspected as a member of European message boards. A study cited by some of the US Representatives found that 30% of Europeans have strong anti-Semitic views and feelings. Another approximate 30% are not concerned at all or mildly concerned about this phenomena. I am very concerned about moods toward Jews worldwide.

Also cited was the strong verbal attacks on participants at a California University during a pro-Israel rally. A pro-Palestinian rally had occurred previously at the university, with no such problems
.

This does lead one to believe that Europe is ripe for another Kristallnacht.
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Gala
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 06:45 pm
If you trace the history, American was disliked for it's brashness long before it's involvement with Israel.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 06:53 pm
Gala.
True.
My opinion is that our relationship with Israel is just a good reason to hate us a bunch more, and more openly.

The two most hated nations in the world; best buds, bigger target.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 07:32 pm
Sofia


The United States is not a hated nation -- and frankly, neither is Israel. Both have many, many critics around the world -- and both seem to be doing their level best to deserve the criticism.

One reason for anti-Semitism -- and the supposed "rise" in anti-Semitism is that it is almost impossible to discuss Israel with many Jews and not be suspected, indeed accused, of being anti-Semitic unless you agree with the Israeli position in almost every instance. As far as I am concerned, lots of supposed anti-Semitism is simply inflexibility and paranoia on the part of many Jews.

In any case, the United States has NOT been even-handed in the Middle East -- and our stance on the issues is indefensible. Isreal is far from blameless for much of the nonsense going on there -- making their bed and then complaining because they have to sleep in it.

Until the United States finally gets away from the position that we will back Israel no matter what -- we will never be effective power brokers in that area. Unless Israel re-thinks it position vis-a-vis' the other people in the area, things will get worse for it -- not better.

Although I understand the kinds of problems that have lead many Jews to assume the "victim" attitude of "we are hated", I don't like it -- and I never want to feel that way about this country.

We are not a hated country -- but unless we wake up soon, we will be.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 07:59 pm
Attacking individuals Jews, while yelling "dirty Jew" and bombing synagogues is anti-Semitism. When these things happen 400 times more than they did the preceding year, it is a rise in anti-Semitism.

When anti-Semitic remarks and sentiment is a campaign platform in a country that wins enough votes to be in a run-off, there is a serious national problem. Criticism of Israel is a seperate issue.

All countries can be criticised, as far as I'm concerned. But, implying that accusations of anti-Semitism are based on criticism of Israel is dodging the real, pervasive issue of rising global anti-Semitism, IMO.

What is the most hated country in the world? I'll look for statistics.
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badpenny
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 09:48 pm
frolic wrote:
But isn't Anti-semitism of the same category like racism, xenofobism and Arabfobism?

And isn't it more a conservative way of thinking to distrust everything foreign, strange and unusual?

Were the Nazis not extremely conservatists?

Yes, no, and no; respectively.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2003 01:56 am
badpenny wrote:
Craven de Kere wrote:
Isreal. I understand why (security concerns + effectiveness of the practice in their case) but found cav's post ironic.

Excellent comment. Interesting that I initially assumed you were taking exception with the practice rather than simply acknowledging that it is done. I'll have to watch how I take what you write...

- Penny for your thoughts...


I have no qualm with some practices and take issue with others.

e.g. I don't mind the racial profiling on airplanes but think that underfunding Arab schools and other social issues in Isreal is criminal. The Arab Israelis are, for the most part, suprisingly loyal to Isreal.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2003 01:57 am
badpenny wrote:
New Haven wrote:
Is there some reason for the sudden rise in anti-semitism in the USA, especially in the la-la land of California?

Yes. Anti-semitism, like all bigotry, is a shortcut to actual thought, a lazy-man's point of view. California is full of liberals, and liberals don't like to think.

"Why don't they like to think, you ask?"

Because thinking inevitably leads them to conservative points of view.


I have yet to see a more intellectually bankrupt argument.
0 Replies
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2003 02:14 am
Sofia wrote:
Attacking individuals Jews, while yelling "dirty Jew" and bombing synagogues is anti-Semitism. When these things happen 400 times more than they did the preceding year, it is a rise in anti-Semitism.

When anti-Semitic remarks and sentiment is a campaign platform in a country that wins enough votes to be in a run-off, there is a serious national problem. Criticism of Israel is a seperate issue.

All countries can be criticised, as far as I'm concerned. But, implying that accusations of anti-Semitism are based on criticism of Israel is dodging the real, pervasive issue of rising global anti-Semitism, IMO.

What is the most hated country in the world? I'll look for statistics.


Sofia, i live in the neigbourhood of Antwerp. Antwerp is called "The Jerusalem of Western Europe" because it has a lot of Arabs(moslims) and Jews living in the same city. And i can assure you this anti-Semitism isn't as bad as you think. But like i've said before. Those European Arabs see their Arab brothers slaughtered and killed by IDF soldiers. Its a human reaction to adress your anger to the local Jewish community. The same happened after 9/11 when Arabs were attacked in the US. Not a defensible reaction, but a human one.

This also means that it is not a real European problem because the acts of anti-Semitism come mainly from Arabs living in Europe. And the reason for this anti-Semitism is mainly triggered by Israeli solution of the Palestinian issue. Action-Reaction
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2003 03:55 am
here a point of view on "The new anti-Semitism",
A view i do not share.

Quote:
Melanie Phillips is a Daily Mail columnist



=>And how would you call this remarks? Anti-Islam! Arabofobic? But since Melanie Phillips is a Jew herself i can't make such allegations because that would make me a Jew-hater.

And it helps of course that all the other experts she based her allegations on are also Jews.
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