cicerone imposter wrote:I just love this exchange between Run4 and rosborne:
Run 4 fun wrote:
How, may I ask, do you read the Bible and then say that it is poetry?
rosborne wrote:
Just lower your standards on what constitutes poetry.
Ha, I almost thought that one got lost in the shuffle. Glad you liked it
BDV wrote:real life wrote:Europe and America would be societies characterized by a lack of freedom and progress, as compared with the other societies of the world?
and how are they different ? the likes of the UK and US probably have less freedom than others. I spoke to a Chinese women today who has only been living in the UK 2 years and she finds it very oppressive compared to communist China
Cyracuz wrote:real life wrote:The societies (primarily Europe and America) that have produced the most freedom, the most progress and prosperity are those that were overwhelmingly populated for hundreds of years by people who were Christians (however imperfect they were) and believed the Bible.
I am not sure we have produced the most freedom. Maybe we just traded, because I know I am not alone when I say that I sometimes feel like a captive in this rat race of mindless production and consumption that you call prosperity and progress.
Some call the abundance we live in, with multiple choices between brands of the same goods, prosperity. I'd call it prosperity to have what is needed. All the excess isn't prosperity.
And while we can chose between seventeen brands of cereal, most of the world's population live on sparse rations of rice and bananas, if that. And that is largely due to the activities of these countries that have been populated by christians for hundreds of years. Yea for progress.
Quote:If the Bible is so ridiculous and Christianity such a plague, wouldn't you expect that Europe and America would be societies characterized by a lack of freedom and progress, as compared with the other societies of the world?
Yes I would. And if you ask me, they are.
If you and BDV consider Europe and America to be lacking in freedom, and societies such as China or Cuba ( Communist countries NOT plagued by Christianity) to be beacons of freedom, why don't you move there?
Do you think if you lived in China or Cuba and wanted to move to Europe or America that you could just pick up and go at will?
Why not? I thought they were free over there.
Note to readers: This is why the safety and security of America and Europe should NEVER be trusted to liberals. You have been forewarned!
Quote:The societies (primarily Europe and America) that have produced the most freedom, the most progress and prosperity are those that were overwhelmingly populated for hundreds of years by people who were Christians (however imperfect they were) and believed the Bible.
How do you explain that?
Luckily for Western Civilization, at precisely the right moments in time, such as when the Church wanted to interfere with the medical community's study of blood transfusion or when the Protestant Bishops were decrying the deliberate science unlying the use of vaccines, the believers have been told to
screw off.
The freedoms and progress seen in Europe and America have been made in
spite of those who hold to the belief in the supernatural, not because of them.
Science and Business has driven the Western World to where it is by tolerating a certain amount of moralistic drumbeating from those who Science and Business recognize have to make a buck or two themselves by preaching the myth of rewards in heaven. The churchmen are allowed so long as they don't make themselves a nuisance or interfere with research.
Joe(now have a look at the science of Islamic countries since the middle 1400's)Nation
Quite right you are about at the science of earlier Islam, but let's not forget the earlier Greeks with their polytheism and massive contributions to Western sciences, philosophies, arts, governments etc.
real life wrote:Cyracuz wrote:And I do think that christianity is a plague on this earth.
The bible is a ridiculous book, and when I engage in a thread about it or any christian topic it's usually for the fun of making fun of it.
The societies (primarily Europe and America) that have produced the most freedom, the most progress and prosperity are those that were overwhelmingly populated for hundreds of years by people who were Christians (however imperfect they were) and believed the Bible.
How do you explain that?
If the Bible is so ridiculous and Christianity such a plague, wouldn't you expect that Europe and America would be societies characterized by a lack of freedom and progress, as compared with the other societies of the world?
It's very possible that Christianity had nothing do with this. The fact that they coincided doesn't mean anything. I don't suppose you're familiar with the correlation between global warming and the decline of pirates, are you?
real, Philosophy, governments, and "freedoms" existed long before christianity came on the scene.
As far as this idea of decreased progress without religion is concerned...
Quote:Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, and Chronicles 16:30 state that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved." Psalm 104:5 says, "[the LORD] set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "the sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises."
In 1616, the church, supported by those passages in the bible, ordered Gallileo to stop his defense of heliocentric theory. Obviously the church was wrong. Again. Science succeeded in its course to educate men and we all know now that the world in which we live is round, and NOT at the center of the universe.
It also seems there's another planet with the right environment that may have life forms. But have no fear, the people of religion will continue to believe in their god(s), no matter how many scientific findings prove the holy bible to be written by men with no knowledge of science, and therefore full of errors. That god is the author has been poopooed a long time ago.
cicerone imposter wrote:It also seems there's another planet with the right environment that may have life forms. But have no fear, the people of religion will continue to believe in their god(s), no matter how many scientific findings prove the holy bible to be written by men with no knowledge of science, and therefore full of errors. That god is the author has been poopooed a long time ago.
May have life forms...
Scientifically proven no doubt!!!
You ask why those who believe in no god are so adamant about there being no god, but why are those that believe in a god so adamant about their god(s)/goddess(es). Though not all those that believe in something are adamant about it, but look at the catholic religion they are the most adamant in the US, they run our government and more than half our laws are based on catholic religion. Why can two males marry? Because the catholics believe it is wrong, it has nothing to do with love.
What good is any belief in anything if you aren't adamant (committed) to it? Doesn't seem logical to believe in something and perhaps just believe a little?
cicerone imposter wrote:real, Philosophy, governments, and "freedoms" existed long before christianity came on the scene.
Name a society from any time in history that has produced more freedom, (political, religious, economic, social) and produced more progress (technological, medical,scientific) than the societies of the West (America and Europe).
USAFHokie80 wrote:real life wrote:Cyracuz wrote:And I do think that christianity is a plague on this earth.
The bible is a ridiculous book, and when I engage in a thread about it or any christian topic it's usually for the fun of making fun of it.
The societies (primarily Europe and America) that have produced the most freedom, the most progress and prosperity are those that were overwhelmingly populated for hundreds of years by people who were Christians (however imperfect they were) and believed the Bible.
How do you explain that?
If the Bible is so ridiculous and Christianity such a plague, wouldn't you expect that Europe and America would be societies characterized by a lack of freedom and progress, as compared with the other societies of the world?
It's very possible that Christianity had nothing do with this. The fact that they coincided doesn't mean anything. I don't suppose you're familiar with the correlation between global warming and the decline of pirates, are you?
I don't suppose you're familiar with the global warming that is evident on about half (or more) of the other planets in our solar system, are you?
real, Go study the history of Greece, China, India, and Egypt.
cicerone imposter wrote:real, Go study the history of Greece, China, India, and Egypt.
Which one do you contend (and in what time period) produced more freedom, (political, religious, economic, social) and produced more progress (technological, medical,scientific) than the societies of the West (America and Europe)?
Please be specific. (this should be good
)
Also is your answer on this fueled primarily by your hatred of George Bush, or would your answer be the same if Hilly and Billy were still in the White House?
real life wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:real, Go study the history of Greece, China, India, and Egypt.
Which one do you contend (and in what time period) produced more freedom, (political, religious, economic, social) and produced more progress (technological, medical,scientific) than the societies of the West (America and Europe)?
Please be specific. (this should be good
)
Also is your answer on this fueled primarily by your hatred of George Bush, or would your answer be the same if Hilly and Billy were still in the White House?
I would really say the cradle of democracy is a pretty great advancement that had nothing to do with christianity. And the great western nations are founded on this concept.
Coolwhip wrote:real life wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:real, Go study the history of Greece, China, India, and Egypt.
Which one do you contend (and in what time period) produced more freedom, (political, religious, economic, social) and produced more progress (technological, medical,scientific) than the societies of the West (America and Europe)?
Please be specific. (this should be good
)
Also is your answer on this fueled primarily by your hatred of George Bush, or would your answer be the same if Hilly and Billy were still in the White House?
I would really say the cradle of democracy is a pretty great advancement that had nothing to do with christianity. And the great western nations are founded on this concept.
The foundations of political, religious , economic and social freedom that the western nations enjoy, (as well as the progress in technology, medicine and science), were all in place long before any of them were 'democratic'.
Arella Mae wrote:What good is any belief in anything if you aren't adamant (committed) to it? Doesn't seem logical to believe in something and perhaps just believe a little?
There is no explicit reason why there must be "good in any belief". There is no logic that dictates the degree of belief must be germane.
Arelia Mae asks "What good is any belief in anything if you aren't adamant (committed) to it? Doesn't seem logical to believe in something and perhaps just believe a little?"
Arelia, why do beliefs have to be adamant? Can't they be "working hypotheses" subject to testing and replacement by "beliefs" that appear to work better for us. Isn't believing "a little" about the same thing as an open-minded belief that is "tentative" or "provisional"?. To close off experience because of "committment" is to cease one's learning from experience--for the sake of the false security provided by doctrines.
Modern Science and Ancient India
Sunday, April 15th in Galileo, zero, calculus, sanskrit, vedas, pythagoras, sulva, Giordano, vedic, einstein, roman, India, China, history, innovation, mathematics, astronomy, greek, ancient, America, Science | 2 comments
"We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made." - Albert Einstein
"The ingenious method of expressing every possible number using a set of ten symbols (each symbol having a place value and an absolute value) emerged in India. The idea seems so simple nowadays that its significance and profound importance is no longer appreciated. Its simplicity lies in the way it facilitated calculation and placed arithmetic foremost amongst useful inventions. The importance of this invention is more readily appreciated when one considers that it was beyond the two greatest men of antiquity, Archimedes and Apollonius." - Laplace
Every person aware of modern science if also well aware that mathematics is the soul of modern science. Computers, Medical equipments, missiles, reactors, automobiles, electronic equipments, economics, finance, banks every where we need mathematics.
