This is directed towards any of you who are believers in afterlife. Can you describe what it is that you perceive will move on?
Is it the human consciousness that makes up our personality? The one that is continually changing from birth to death? The one that is subject to change by drugs or physical injury, or simply the deterioration of the aging process?
For someone with dementia, will the spirit that moves on be the one that existed before onslaught of disease?
For someone with a severe brain injury such as many of our soldiers receive in Iraq, will it be the essence of the person before the injury, or as they may be for years before death?
These are some of the questions that I ponder when I try to understand how people can believe in an afterlife. Of course no one can know. I am just interested in what those who believe it think.
It is our soul that lives on in the afterlife.
Thanks, MA, but that is hardly an answer. If you read the questions you will see that I am trying to understand exactly what is perceived to be the soul or spirit or whatever else you want to name it.
I want to know how you perceive it to fit the situations I mentioned.
The "soul." Something that can't be proved or observed. Sorta like another miracle; make something out of nothing.
cicerone imposter wrote:The "soul." Something that can't be proved or observed. Sorta like another miracle; make something out of nothing.
C.I.,
I am steadily losing patience with you. In my opinion, you are acting like a silly child that just can't stand to be ignored. If you want to play, then play by the rules the rest of us are sticking to. If you can't do that, please take your marbles and go play somewhere else. That is a request, not a demand, BTW. Some of us are trying to have a decent interesting conversation here.
Mesquite,
Sorry. The soul was explained to me as being mind, spirit, and emotion. When we are united with Christ at His Second Coming, we will have a new perfect body.
Phoenix32890 wrote:Quote:So you have proof that there is no afterlife??? Maybe you have a fear of not really dying when your physical body perishes. I love how you guys lecture me like you're so enlightened. It must be nice to have all the answers.
John Creasy- So you have the proof that there is????
I said that I cannot conceive of an afterlife. I am not saying that there is none. I dunno. But based on what I know now, there is no reason to even consider an afterlife as an entity, any more than I might consider that the surface of Mars is made of Swiss cheese. Both allegations have about the same level of validity, IMO.
c.i.- Sorry. I tend to fall into the trap of sometimes taking things too literally.
And what exactly do you know now that gives you the balls to say an afterlife has no validity??? I'm pretty sure we can prove that mars is not made out of swiss cheese yet you cannot prove that there is no afterlife. On the contrary, there's thousands of people who have had near death experiences and testified to some kind of other realm. I myself have had a spiritual experience, and many people I know have had experiences even more miraculous than mine.
You're statement of "I dunno" is the only true statement I've heard from you so far.
John Creasy,
You seem to be misunderstanding Phoenix. She said that both allegations have about the same level of validity. To me that means, the same thing can be said for both. I told you, Phoenix is very fair.
It's okay for her to not conceive of an afterlife just as much as it is okay for me or anyone else to conceive of one.
So in all honesty, neither point can be proven.
Validity:
Afterlife does not equal mar's Swiss cheese
Mar's has no Swiss cheese has much more validity than there is an after life.
So, what's your point?
Momma Angel wrote:Mesquite,
Sorry. The soul was explained to me as being mind, spirit, and emotion. When we are united with Christ at His Second Coming, we will have a new perfect body.
The questions I posed were intended to point out the difficulty of separating "mind spirit and emotion" from a functioning brain. Try for instance to just answer the soldier question or the dementia one.
mesquite wrote:Is it the human consciousness that makes up our personality? The one that is continually changing from birth to death? The one that is subject to change by drugs or physical injury, or simply the deterioration of the aging process?
For someone with dementia, will the spirit that moves on be the one that existed before onslaught of disease?
For someone with a severe brain injury such as many of our soldiers receive in Iraq, will it be the essence of the person before the injury, or as they may be for many years before death?
These are some of the questions that I ponder when I try to understand how people can believe in an afterlife. Of course no one can know. I am just interested in what those who believe it think.
THE FUNCTIONS OF THE BRAIN
The human brain is a complex organ that allows us to think, move, feel, see, hear, taste, and smell. It controls our body, receives information, analyzes information, and stores information (our memories).
The brain produces electrical signals, which, together with chemical reactions, let the parts of the body communicate. Nerves send these signals throughout the body.
SIZE OF THE HUMAN BRAIN
The average human brain weighs about 3 pounds (1300-1400 g).
At birth, the human brain weighs less than a pound (0.78-0.88 pounds or 350-400 g). As a child grows, the number of cell remains relatively stable, but the cells grow in size and the number of connections increases. The human brain reaches its full size at about 6 years of age.
COMPOSITION OF THE BRAIN
The brain consists of gray matter (40%) and white matter (60%) contained within the skull. Brain cells include neurons and glial cells.
The brain has three main parts: the cerebrum, the cerebellum, and the brain stem (medulla).
NOURISHMENT OF THE BRAIN
Although the brain is only 2% of the body's weight, it uses 20% of the oxygen supply and gets 20% of the blood flow. Blood vessels (arteries, capillaries, and veins) supply the brain with oxygen and nourishment, and take away wastes. If brain cells do not get oxygen for 3 to 5 minutes, they begin to die.
Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) surrounds the brain.
THE NERVOUS SYSTEM
The brain and spinal cord make up the central nervous system (CNS). The brain is connected to the spinal cord, which runs from the neck to the hip area. The spinal cord carries nerve messages between the brain and the body.
The nerves that connect the CNS to the rest of the body are called the peripheral nervous system.
The autonomic nervous system controls our life support systems that we don't consciously control, like breathing, digesting food, blood circulation, etc.
PROTECTION
The cells of the nervous system are quite fragile and need extensive protection from being crushed, being infected by disease organisms, and other harm. The brain and spinal cord are covered by a tough, translucent membrane, called the dura matter. Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) is a clear, watery liquid that surrounds the brain and spinal cord, and is also found throughout the ventricle (brain cavities and tunnels). CSF cushions the brain and spinal cord from jolts.
The cranium (the top of the skull) surrounds and protects the brain. The spinal cord is surrounded by vertebrae (hollow spinal bones). Also, some muscles serve to pad and support the spine.
More subtly, the blood-brain barrier protects the brain from chemical intrusion from the rest of the body. Blood flowing into the brain is filtered so that many harmful chemicals cannot enter the brain.
My Comment: Once the body dies, the brain ceases to function. All the electrical and chemical reactions of the brain stops - dead. Gone forever. Kaput, sayonara, adios,, bye-bye, lifeless, perished, gone, bellyup, stone cold, out of order...
Mesquite,
I can only assume in this case, ok? Since we are to have new bodies when we unite with Christ at His Second Coming and the bodies are to be perfectly, I would imagine that our minds would be sound.
Wait... My body contains atoms that were part of Jesus Christ, Pope John Paul II, and Tom DeLay. Who gets to keep the disputed atoms?
Re: Atheists... Your life is pointless
John Creasy wrote:I've always wondered why people that are so adamant about the non-existence of God, debate morals and what is right and wrong.
The concept of God and the concept of morality are ultimately independent, though they're often closely associated.
Quote:If there is no God and this world is truly just a cosmic fluke, than your life and everything that happens in it are of no consequence whatsoever.
Would depend on how one defines "consequence." Your implication is that only consequences that determine one's fate after death are worth considering. There are simply those who do not feel the same.
Quote:Why not just do whatever you want and not care about others.
The connection you make between these two concepts is confusing. You imply one cannot both do what they want and care about others.
Quote:Love of others is just some accidental emotion that means nothing. So do whatever you want. Your life, your children's life, and your children's children's life will all be over soon and nothing will be remembered.
If this is the conclusion you draw when considering life without God, that's perfectly fine; yet understand it's not the conclusion others may draw.
P.S. Would it be rude of me to point out these questions are really short-sighted and immature?
Momma Angel wrote:Mesquite,
I can only assume in this case, ok? Since we are to have new bodies when we unite with Christ at His Second Coming and the bodies are to be perfectly, I would imagine that our minds would be sound.
MA,
Soundness of the mind can be a very ambiguous term. It is easy to understand the reason ancients interpreted mind and personality as a separate essence apart from the body, but as with many other areas, modern science has provided new information and understanding of how the brain functions.
We now know how that chemical imbalances in the brain can severely affect what is perceived as personality. Many mental disorders are just that, and can be treated as such.
We can pinpoint areas of the brain where different functions are located such as emotions, memory, motor control etc.
In the example of the injured soldier, he may be fully functional and sound, just different, with missing memories and likes or dislikes varied from before.
As with all scientific knowledge, each answer provides more questions, but the existance of a soul separate from the physical body is looking mighty slim indeed IMO.
Quote:Ray says he has a problem with the idea of evoltution having a purpose. Why is this? Are you that frightened of a power greater than yourself?
Never said I was.
I have a problem with evolution having a purpose because in saying so people have made this biological process of "evolution" as an "ought" statement. It is also inconsistent with the scientific theory.
Mesquite Wrote:
Quote:MA,
Soundness of the mind can be a very ambiguous term. It is easy to understand the reason ancients interpreted mind and personality as a separate essence apart from the body, but as with many other areas, modern science has provided new information and understanding of how the brain functions.
We now know how that chemical imbalances in the brain can severely affect what is perceived as personality. Many mental disorders are just that, and can be treated as such.
We can pinpoint areas of the brain where different functions are located such as emotions, memory, motor control etc.
In the example of the injured soldier, he may be fully functional and sound, just different, with missing memories and likes or dislikes varied from before.
As with all scientific knowledge, each answer provides more questions, but the existance of a soul separate from the physical body is looking mighty slim indeed IMO.
Mesquite,
Do you ever tire of analyzing words the way you do? Do you ever just take anything at face value? I am very curious about this.
I assumed that you would understand what I meant by sound mind. Didn't think it necessarily had to be a long, drawn out thing.
Everything is a long drawn out thing.
Arp <------ (my protest)
Lash wrote:Everything is a long drawn out thing.
Arp <------ (my protest)
Hey Lash! How are you?
I just can't imagine sitting down and having conversations like this with someone face to face on a regular basis. Would drive me nuts!
Hi. How've you been? Are you deemed worthy of the PM feature, yet?
Its sort of funny most of the time--the torturous explication of each tiny word and every possible meaning....but it can be a pain in the ass, as well.
Bill Clinton: "It depends of your meaning of "is"...."
