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Atheists... Your life is pointless

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 07:27 am
You were given ample opportunity to condemn the violence against the Moslems in Burma, but decided not to.

As far as evidence of your mindset goes, that's more than enough.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 07:40 am
PSA:

Quote:
Argumentum
ad Hominem

Taxonomy: Logical Fallacy > Informal Fallacy > Red Herring > Genetic Fallacy
Translation: "Argument against the man" (Latin)
Alias: The Fallacy of Personal Attack
Example:

William Bennett…, leader… of the antirap campaign…, [has] had no trouble finding antipolice and antiwomen lyrics to quote in support of [his] claim that "nothing less is at stake than civilization" if rappers are not rendered silent. So odious are the lyrics, that rarely do politicians or journalists stop to ask what qualifies Bennett to lead a moralistic crusade on behalf of America's minority youth. Not only has he opposed funding for the nation's leader in quality children's programming (the Public Broadcasting Corporation), he has urged that "illegitimate" babies be taken from their mothers and put in orphanages.
Source: Barry Glassner, The Culture of Fear (1999), p. 122.

Analysis


Exposition:

A debater commits the Ad Hominem Fallacy when he introduces irrelevant personal premisses about his opponent. Such red herrings may successfully distract the opponent or the audience from the topic of the debate.

Exposure:

Ad Hominem is the most familiar of informal fallacies, and—with the possible exception of Undistributed Middle—the most familiar logical fallacy of them all. It is also one of the most used and abused of fallacies, and both justified and unjustified accusations of Ad Hominem abound in any debate. It is a frequently misidentified fallacy, for many people seem to think that any personal criticism, attack, or insult counts as an ad hominem fallacy. Moreover, in some contexts the phrase "ad hominem" may refer to an ethical lapse, rather than a logical mistake, as it may be a violation of debate etiquette to engage in personalities. So, in addition to ignorance, there is also the possibility of equivocation on the meaning of "ad hominem".

For instance, the charge of "ad hominem" is often raised during American political campaigns, but is seldom logically warranted. We vote for, elect, and are governed by politicians, not platforms; in fact, political platforms are primarily symbolic and seldom enacted. So, personal criticisms are logically relevant to deciding who to vote for. Of course, such criticisms may be logically relevant but factually mistaken, or wrong in some other non-logical way.

Finally, the phrase "ad hominem argument" is occasionally used to refer to a very different type of argument, namely, one that uses premisses accepted by the opposition to argue for a position. In other words, if you are trying to convince someone of something, using premisses that the person accepts—whether or not you believe them yourself. This is not necessarily a fallacious argument, and is often rhetorically effective.

Subfallacies:

Abusive: An Abusive Ad Hominem occurs when an attack on the character or other irrelevant personal qualities of the opposition—such as appearance—is offered as evidence against their position. Such attacks are often effective distractions ("red herrings"), because the opponents feel it necessary to defend themselves, thus being distracted from the topic of the debate.
Circumstantial: A Circumstantial Ad Hominem is one in which some irrelevant personal circumstance surrounding the opposition is offered as evidence against their position. This fallacy is often introduced by phrases such as: "Of course, that's what you'd expect them to say." The fallacy claims that the only reason why they argue as they do is because of personal circumstances, such as standing to gain from the argument's acceptance.
This form of the fallacy needs to be distinguished from criticisms directed at testimony, which are not fallacious, since pointing out that someone stands to gain from testifying a certain way would tend to cast doubt upon that testimony. For instance, when a celebrity endorses a product, it is usually in return for money, which lowers the evidentiary value of such an endorsement—often to nothing! In contrast, the fact that an arguer may gain in some way from an argument's acceptance does not affect the evidentiary value of the argument, for arguments can and do stand or fall on their own merits.
Poisoning the Well
Tu Quoque
Q&A:

Q: Despite taking an introduction to logic course last semester, I still cannot differentiate between when it's permissible to attack someone's credibility and when it's considered an ad hominem. Could you shed some light on this for me?―Paul Margiotis
A: The main thing to keep in mind is the distinction between argumentation and testimony. The whole point of logic is to develop techniques for evaluating the cogency of arguments independently of the arguer's identity. So, ask the question: is the person being criticized arguing or testifying? Are reasons being presented, or must we take the person's word for something? If the person is arguing, the argument should be evaluated on its own merits; if testifying, then credibility is important.

Q: I am having a disagreement over the proper usage of the term "ad hominem". My opponent claims that any personal attack during a debate that is not an attempt to discredit the opponent, but just rude, is an "ad hominem attack", if not necessarily an "ad hominem argument". I believe this is a false distinction, partially due to a misreading of your paragraph on misidentification of ad hominem arguments. I argue that the personal insult is not an ad hominem because it is not an attempt to discredit the argument of the opponent, but is just rudeness. Can you please help?―Jon
A: I don't think there's a precise definition of "ad hominem attack", but on the rare occasions when I've used the phrase it was as a synonym of "personal attack". So, an ad hominem attack is not necessarily an argument, let alone an instance of the fallacy. A lawyer attacking the credibility of a witness in a trial would be engaging in an "ad hominem attack", but not necessarily a fallacious one. However, every ad hominem argument is an ad hominem attack. Thus, ad hominem attack is a more general concept than ad hominem argument.

Analysis of the Example:

This is an Ad Hominem of the circumstantial variety. Glassner suggests that Bennett is somehow unqualified to criticize rap music because of positions he allegedly took on other issues. However wrong Bennett may have been on other issues, such as the funding of public television or illegitimacy, that does not mean that his criticisms of rap were mistaken.

Source:

S. Morris Engel, With Good Reason: An Introduction to Informal Fallacies (Fifth Edition) (St. Martin's, 1994), pp. 198-206.
Resources:

Alan Brinton, "The Ad Hominem" in Fallacies: Classical and Contemporary Readings, edited by Hans V. Hanson and Robert C. Pinto (Penn State Press, 1995), pp. 213-222
Frans H. Van Eemeren & Rob Grootendoorst, "Argumentum Ad Hominem: A Pragma-Dialectical Case in Point" in Fallacies: Classical and Contemporary Readings, edited by Hans V. Hanson & Robert C. Pinto (Penn State Press, 1995), pp. 223-228.
Yvonne Raley, "Character Attacks: How to Properly Apply the Ad Hominem", Scientific American, 5/2008
Douglas N. Walton, Arguer's Position: A Pragmatic Study of Ad Hominem Attack, Criticism, Refutation, and Fallacy (Greenwood, 1985).


http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 07:43 am
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/522085_629892750369489_585220619_n.jpg
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 07:55 am
@FBM,
One might think from that FB that you would avoid the error yourself that you have drawn our attention to. The Undistributed Middle is, of course, at the very centre of your position.
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 07:58 am
@spendius,
If ad homs were all I based my arguments on, that would be true. However...there are those tons and tons of real physical evidence that science works vs...nada for those mysterious, supernatural gods people keep killing people over...
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 08:03 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

What does that have to do with my "moral high ground"? The way Buddhism is practiced by the masses, it's essentially indistinguishable from a theistic religion.


Whoa, be careful there, FBM! It looks like your statement is less than generous to those Buddhists there!! Good thing you used big words so certain people couldn't understand what you said! Wink
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 10:34 am
@FBM,
Absolute tosh. You've done little else but insult SM since you came on.

There's a very big difference between you and MattDavis, who has tried to show the benefits of living a life free from superstition. He has shown his need to be moral, even going so far as to live a vegan lifestyle. He's also been friendly and polite throughout.

You're motivated by negative emotions, insulting all those who believe differently from you, and posting simplistic bumper sticker comments at the drop of a hat.

Your reasoning being that this whole thread is an insult to atheists which ignores the fact that the originator has long gone, and the argument moved on a long time ago. You still refuse to condemn the genocide carried out in Burma, making the fallacious comment that those Buddhists are like theists. Bullshit, they're Buddhists just like your buddies in the monastery.

In short you demonstrate all that's bad about organised religion, an insistance that you're right, complete intolerance of other opinions, and a handy way of ignoring or dismissing anything that doesn't fit with your world view.

As for evidence, how about medical evidence? Here's a link to supposed medical miracles after people visited Lourdes. I know you'll dismiss this out of hand, instead of accepting that you don't really know enough to comment.

Quote:


Elisa ALOI
Born on 26.11.1931 in Patti (Sicily)

Cured on 5.6.1958, in her 27th. year. Miracle on 26.5.1965, by Mgr Francesco Fasola, Archbishop of Messine.

This was the last cure involving multiple tuberculous lesions.

Elisa ALOI was nearly 17 years old when her illness began with a white swelling" of the right knee (tuberculous arthritis). In the following 10 years, up to 1958, she developed numerous tuberculous infections in bones and joints. At these sites, fistulae usually occured, requiring in-patient treatment in hospitals and sanatoria. Despite more or less immediate treatment, relapses and recurrences were for ever happening.

In June 1957, in desperation, she went to Lourdes with the Unitalsi Pilgrimage from Sicily.

She did not seem to benefit from the visit really.

But in 1958, she went to Lourdes again in a much worse condition, encased in a pelvis-to-foot plaster cast, with four fistulae drained through it. The dressings were soaked in Lourdes' water during the pilgrimage. Just ten days after she had left Sicily, her surgeon observed and wrote "Elisa ALOI returned from Lourdes completely cured".

The Medical Bureau in Lourdes recognised her cure, and handed her dossier to the International Medical Committee in 1960.

There, Professor Salmon, the recorder, had his report of a medically inexplicable cure adopted by the Committee.

Finally, after the Canonical Commission had given a favourable report, Mgr Fasola, Archbishop of Messine, declared "that the cure from multiple fistulous tuberculosis, which happened to Elisa ALOI, is miraculous" on 26.5.1965.

Some months later she married. Between 1966 and 1974, she gave birth safely to four children, which without any doubt was "the best evidence of her complete cure"!


http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/miracles4.html
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 11:04 am
@FBM,
Quote:
nada for those mysterious, supernatural gods people keep killing people over...


You really are obtuse FB. It's because we don't like admitting that we kill each other over territory and females. Killing in the name of a supernatural being is much more stylish. It raises us above the beasts. And, as a bonus, the supernatural being we kill for gets us more territory and females.

One cannot help being an atheist but to promote atheism when it is a dead duck, and well known to be, is either stupid or an affectation. There are certain advantages to being an atheist in a pious society and why any atheist would seek to convert more people to atheism and equip them with the same advantages has always been a mystery to me.

Foofie
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 11:08 am
@izzythepush,
I would put more credence in a Lazarus style resurrection. Getting cured from a medical condition can always be attributed to the body healing itself. We really know so little in the powers of the mind over the body.

izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 12:44 pm
@Foofie,
This was in response to FBM's claim that there was not a shred of evidence. And you're quite right, it's not conclusive evidence by any means. It is however, more than a shred.

It could be evidence of all sorts of things, not least the power of mind over body, but it is, or appears to be, outside of contemporary medical understanding.

It's only one website, so I wouldn't rush to judgement either way.

Quote:
I would put more credence in a Lazarus style resurrection


Lazarus? You believe that do you? Well well.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 02:59 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Since you indicate that during your considerations you have discovered something that shows with absolute certainty that the supposed conversations are NOT delusions…

…please share the elements that indicate to you “absolute certainty” that you are not being delusional...so that we can see that in fact you are absolutely certain.

Gladly Frank...I think that when someone questions how they could, in fact, be incorrect over and over and puts every subjective view, belief, opinion, thought, in the dust...because they would honestly like to know from a high conscious perspective...then they begin to start to understand how it is not about themselves, but what "God" thinks, or what is "correct" not what they previously thought...and why...since a God is perfect and they are not...they begin to understand this in an absolutely certain way, (because the answers come to them, from a higher consciousness directly to them within, or a self revelation happens), while they are not certain themselves...(because they had doubts it would work, but chose to do it, because they put their own thinking aside, and the revelations still occur, [faith])...So it can not be delusion, because if one was already delusional, then by doing that...nothing would happen...they would in fact realize they believe it is "nonsense"...and understand why they do not want to do this...freely choose not to believe in God...freely choose to have "rejections" freely chose not be "delusional"...IE become an atheist...If one thinks they are not "deluded", then by doing this, they believe it makes them truly become "delusional" It means they must agree or believe they were, or we all were...and only self revelations provide these answers...that some chose to reject...Unless one can "provide facts" as to how we can "prove" that everyone is delusional and make changes for humanity...(but no atheist has yet)...(unless one thinks everyone is delusional, and there is nothing anyone can do) to fully understand why everyone thinks they are delusional, and chose to freely seek God, means it has ALL to do with their own thinking, and NOTHING at all to do with "God" himself...That is how one knows that if they keep the faith in it...It is also not "delusional" to follow it...(even if others subjectively think it is)...because it is all about what one personally believes, or has faith in themselves...and is self-honest about...since the answers are always self revelations anyways...Or a higher understanding of why they chose to believe that their ways could be wrong...If one thinks that they are not delusional...but by doing this will make them delusional (= rejections) then they would surely go back to thinking their own ways and reject this notion of "God" Or revelations of how they could be incorrect (unfounded superiority) ...Which means that atheists provide the "proof" we all are deluded...is being deluded just an opinion one has in thinking it is wrong to think that someone else knows the answer rather than what their own brain can come up with? Or is it really about the notion of "God"? (no need to answer either, those were rhetorics, not my question(s)...How much one would like to know, is totally dependant on how honest they are when they admit that they think they could be wrong...and why...and how they find the answers to the questions they honestly admit they think they could be incorrect about...and why they say they are, or why they want to look for another answer...


My next question...

Do you agree with what I have just said, disagree, or are unsure, and if you can honestly say that you disagree or are unsure, then can you please explain to me exactly why you think you disagree or unsure?
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 04:42 pm
@spendius,
You haven't been paying attention. You think they were stoning the woman in that picture because they wanted her land?
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 04:50 pm
@izzythepush,
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/Potmeetkettle.gif

As long as Spade insists on obfuscating, making strawmen, making up definitions for words and insisting others play by them, dodging questions, denying basic logic and generally refusing to be intellectually honest, he deserves criticism. I think Frank has been experiencing the same, as has setanta, but I'll let them speak for themselves.

I'm not ashamed because at the end of all this petty personalizing and derailing, I can still point to tons of evidence that science works, and theists have old stories. Old stories are evidence for nothing but the existence of old stories.
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 04:57 pm
Quote:
Thou shalt have a fishie: Florida woman’s ‘miracle’ cracker is a ‘sign from God’

IN the food industry, anything that doesn’t conform to an ordained design is called a mis-shape and is either trashed or sold separately – unless of course it slips into the packaging unnoticed.

On finding an irregular shaped chocolate, sweet or whatever, a consumer is generally amoused – or, in the case of Patti Burke of Melbourne, Florida, overcome by the belief that it’s “a miracle”.

Burke, who is addicted to Cheddar-flavoured Goldfish crackers as well as to Cheesus, found a cracker marked with a circle and a cross and, believing that the Almighty is present in her everyday life, concluded it was a sign from God.

When I picked this one up I knew he was special.

Her conviction was strengthened when she went to the Presbyterian Church of the Good Shepherd on Easter Sunday, where the message was about the significance of the fish symbol in Christianity.

Said the Rev D Scott Worth:

Resurrection and the fish are two things that don’t often get put together.

While he confessing that he did not find the cracker miraculous in itself, he said:

I think it’s a sign that points to THE miracle that Jesus Christ cheated death.

Burke didn’t eat the cracker. It now has a special place in a jewellery box.


http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/500x309xnutterjpgpagespeedicSYP5u-uPX7.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/500x403xfishjpgpagespeedicm5S16uwg_I.jpg

Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 04:58 pm
@FBM,
I have been paying attention. The trick of using one carefully chosen photograph in order to prove that it is respectable to reject religious morality has been exposed for what it is and that is assuming it is an authentic photograph.

Just as your asking what did Jane Austen know as an excuse for ducking out of the argument she presented in favour of clergymen is a trick which only those whose intelligence you are justified in underestimating would be taken in by.

And if you are not aware that you are underestimating our intelligence you are seriously deluded.

Do you want religion extirpated from human life and it be replaced by scientific considerations which you cosy up to for posing purposes and know nothing about? No middle to disturb?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 05:09 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
It's because we don't like admitting that we kill each other over territory and females. Killing in the name of a supernatural being is much more stylish. It raises us above the beasts.


This reasoning seems to be what keeps you in a beast type of mind set.

Quote:
as a bonus, the supernatural being we kill for gets us more territory and females.


How does this type of thinking give you any more than other apes are able to have?

You know spendius there are some caring Catholics out there "that are not sociopaths and there is one in this video.

0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 05:11 pm
@spendius,
I had to pick from among dozens of photographs of theists killing women in order to find one that wasn't too graphic. That's far from an isolated incident. I could have gone to Youtube and presented several videos of African Christians burning "witches" alive. Or I could go to the history books and present a huge number of examples of people being burned or tortured in one way or another for heresy. Poor people from whom the Church had no way to profit, no land to gain.

I'll be honest about the Jane Austen bit: I didn't actually read it. Sorry. I should have, but I've hated her writing ever since I was forced to read her in university. I promise to go back and force myself to read it. Mea culpa.

I stated not so long ago that I see religion as a placebo, and it is therefore useful to those who need it. The problem I'm pointing out is that many of those who take the placebo are malignant and aggressive about forcing people who either use a different placebo or none to use their particular brand. 9/11, etc. I have no beef with religious people who keep their beliefs to themselves. I work with a Catholic and a Seventh Day Adventist. We get along great because none of us tries to push his/her beliefs on the other(s).

0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 05:19 pm
OK, so the Jane Austen passage describes a nifty Victorian image of a couple of centuries ago. What do you make of it? How is it relevant to present conditions?
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 05:21 pm
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/558092_468913766512174_1121331303_n.jpg
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 5 Apr, 2013 05:24 pm
@FBM,
In regard to a retention of some semblance of standards of conduct. Offering examples which Media has ferreted out for you of clergymen falling short of such standards is strictly for those whose intelligence you seem determined to underestimate.
0 Replies
 
 

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