Atheists... Your life is pointless

Bullshit! Jefferson believed in a creator, a deistic God, even though he denied the divinity of Jesus, as well as the trinity.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

There was no question that he openly did not buy into any of the Christian supernatural nonsense such as the virgin birth and was consider an atheist by a large part of the population of the time.

So the idea/opinion that someone consider an atheist could not be president is false on it face and have been for two centuries.

Quote:

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." (Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823)

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@BillRM,

Bill...do you have any citation of Jefferson referring to himself as an atheist?

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
Theists demand absolute proof from science, but then excuse themselves from the same requirement.

There are sciences which I presume you are excluding. And there are theists too who you are excluding. There is cause and effect relating to matter and there is cause and effect relating to social organisation which is a subject atheists are fond of excluding from their thoughts.

What are the effects on social organisation of atheism if the belief is embraced by everybody as it bids fair to do in North Korea. We have no experience of that. The religious believer simply points to the world around if asked for the effects of Christianity.

Kant's Categorical Imperative insists that promoting an idea requires envisaging it being embraced by everybody.

Is this the best argument that you can posit as evidence for the existence of a creator deity?

1 Reply

@spendius,

Spendius wrote:

There are sciences which I presume you are excluding. And there are theists too who you are excluding. There is cause and effect relating to matter and there is cause and effect relating to social organisation which is a subject atheists are fond of excluding from their thoughts.
[emphasis mine]

Ironically there are atheists whom you are excluding.
Your linear understanding of causation is also flawed, as modeled by current "scientific" understanding.

Spendius wrote:

Kant's Categorical Imperative insists that promoting an idea requires envisaging it being embraced by everybody.

Not true. Also irrelevant, as in atheism does not require the embracing of moral philosophy as it was understood by Immanuel Kant in the 18th century.

1 Reply

@Ice Demon,

Quote:

Bullshit! Jefferson believed in a creator, a deistic God, even though he denied the divinity of Jesus, as well as the trinity.

Give a quote of his that would back up your claims that he was a deistic and not an atheist and once more he was consider an atheist by a large percent of his peers at the time.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Bill...do you have any citation of Jefferson referring to himself as an atheist?

No off hand but then the issue is if someone who was consider an atheist could be president and he was indeed consider an atheist by a large percent of the population at the time and he was indeed president.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5282070)
There was no question that he openly did not buy into any of the Christian supernatural nonsense such as the virgin birth and was consider an atheist by a large part of the population of the time.

None of that makes him an atheist.

And I doubt you know for sure that a large part of the population of the time thought him to be an atheist.

Quote:

So the idea/opinion that someone consider an atheist could not be president is false on it face and have been for two centuries.

If you want to consider it to be false...consider it so; it is your right.

Personally, I think no professed atheist will ever be elected president of the United States; that is my right.

If you have any quote from Jefferson declaring that he is an atheist...or from anyone else who has been elected to the presidency...now is the time to offer it up.

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@FBM,

Quote:

Is this the best argument that you can posit as evidence for the existence of a creator deity?

I don't recall my offering any evidence for the existence of a creator deity.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

I do not know if Jefferson considered himself to be an atheist or not...and I strongly suspect you do not know either. There is absolutely nothing in his writings that I know of that could be used as evidence that he declared himself to be an atheist.

Some of his opponents called him an atheist. They may well have influenced others to consider him an atheist. I doubt you could substantiate your claim that the number was "a large percentage of the population."

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

And I doubt you know for sure that a large part of the population of the time thought him to be an atheist.

The anti Jefferson press charge him with being an atheist and he did not denial such charges so there is no reason to assume that the readers of the papers at the time did not give full credit to a charge that he did not denial.

1 Reply

@MattDavis,

You're too good for me Matt.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5282094)
Quote:
And I doubt you know for sure that a large part of the population of the time thought him to be an atheist.

The anti Jefferson press charge him with being an atheist and he did not denial such charges so there is no reason to assume that the readers of the papers at the time did not give full credit to a charge that he did not denial.

C'mon!

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
Is this the best argument that you can posit as evidence for the existence of a creator deity?

I don't recall my offering any evidence for the existence of a creator deity.

Then you're not who I was referring to in my post, are you?

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@Frank Apisa,

I do think it highly unlikely that an outed atheist would be elected US president anytime soon. My opinion is that Jefferson was not an atheist, in word or in personal beliefs. It seems likely from his personal background and philosophical influences that he was an enlightenment philosopher. He probably had at "minimum" a belief in pantheism or a very esoteric idealized imagining of a deity.
A strong case could be made for Ben Franklin as "atheist", however. Though, of course, he was never President.

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@spendius,

Not true. I enjoy our repartee. Very Happy

Different backgrounds. I need more art in my life.

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@BillRM,

Quotes aplenty from Jefferson about god and christianity:

Jefferson about god

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@Frank Apisa,

Come on he was charge in the papers of the time with being an atheist and his writings show a contempt toward both religions and priests and yet you think that a large percent of the population did not view him as an atheist!!!!!!!!!!!

1 Reply

@spendius,

I think we are quite aligned against the sociological dangers of nihilism. Very Happy

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@MattDavis,

You can split hairs all you care to as once more he was viewed as an atheist by a large percent of the population including other founding fathers and he was president so the argument that no openly atheist could be president fall on those facts.

2 Replies

Atheists... Your life is pointless

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