Atheists... Your life is pointless

@wilson19604,

That last post is "evolution".

The other aspect to Darwin's understanding is "speciation".

If groups(species) are split apart in some way (land on separate islands, etc.), then they will evolve separately. This is because the separated groups can no longer breed with each other. In a sense they take different paths. Over time those split off groups will become distinct species.

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@spendius,

Spendius I don't know what you are referring to.
"intelligent design" ?
Or that "intricate" is not an accurate description of current understanding of evolutionary biology?

I think that you are British, perhaps you are unfamiliar with the American plague of biological pseudoscience.

Also I am typing on a cell phone at the moment, so if this is just banter for you, I hope you will excuse if I don't participate at the moment.

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@MattDavis,

Would you not agree Matt that "The Struggle For Existence" (the heading of chapter 4 in Origins) means the same as the "survival of the fittest"?

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@MattDavis,

Quote:

Spendius I don't know what you are referring to.
"intelligent design" ?

No--the impossibility of ruling it out which--

Quote:

They do not support "evolutionary design"

does despite being another asserted tautology.

Quote:

Or that "intricate" is not an accurate description of current understanding of evolutionary biology?

It is not an accurate description because, and here is the reason which most asserted tautologies disdain from providing, in 100 years, assuming no major difficulties, the current understanding of evolutionary biology will be seen as clunking and the experts of that future time will have to describe their own standards as "very intricate" or "really very,very intricate indeed". And they, in their turn, will be seen as crude 100 years later. And that later lot will be stumped for words to describe their current understanding of evolutionary biology without risking looking very, very silly indeed.

Intricate has something about it that is akin to infinity. As you will know, the atom was first discovered by thinking. Over 2000 years ago. That was pretty intricate thinking I should have thought.

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@spendius,

Spendius wrote:

No--the impossibility of ruling it out which--

I made no claim of anything being ruled out. I claimed that current understandings of evolutionary biology do not support "intelligent design".

Obviously no "theory" can be ruled out, especially if the theory does not make verifiable predictions. Intelligent design is unfalsifiable and thus empirically unprovable.

Spendius wrote:

It is not an accurate description because, ....

It is unclear to me which current understanding of evolutionary biology you find tautological. If you have a concern I would be happy to address it.

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@MattDavis,

I noticed "support" Matt. I was addressing the impression it leaves on the casual reader.

Quote:

It is unclear to me which current understanding of evolutionary biology you find tautological.

It was the use of "intricate" I questioned. I don't consider my understanding of evolutionary biology tautological.

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@spendius,

Perhaps a different word would have been more appropriate.
"Complex" maybe.
I actually thought about using "sophisticated" but that is obviously an emotionally charged term.
My intent was to distinguish between the understandings of Darwin and current understandings without bogging down the reader with more concepts which he/she may not yet be familiar with. This is a measure of expediency, or attempting to meet the needs of the audience (in this case someone asking for a clarification on an evolutionary concept).

I would be happy to hear any suggestion you might offer.

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@MattDavis,

It is that atheists cease promoting their belief unless they can provide a satisfactory explanation for what we would get if we had it.

It is one thing to have the belief and quite another to promote it and especially as a claim to intellectual superiority. A heretic is not somebody who believes this or that. It is someone who promotes the beliefs.

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@spendius,

I think your evangelization accusation is misplaced.
At the moment I am primarily concerned about someone not having an understanding of physical reality. Not understanding basic biology and science. This is a concern for us in the United States. I am sure I don't need to provide you any evidence for the relative failings of our public education system.
Perhaps you could let the person whom my comment was directed toward answer, prior to asserting your predictions of intent.

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@MattDavis,

Quote:

Perhaps you could let the person whom my comment was directed toward answer, prior to asserting your predictions of intent.

In which case his failure to answer blocks the thread.

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@spendius,

It doesn't block your ability to discuss whatever else it is you care to discuss.
I just don't see your speculations of my intent or future actions as something which will yield much fruit.
How can you know my future intent, how could I know your future intent.
A non-constructive loop of silliness.

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@MattDavis,

My last post but one said what I want to discuss and what I intend.

Which is not a non-constructive loop of silliness. It is Kant's Categorical Imperative. Once you start using words like "silliness" you have become a circularity. Something objectively silly would be trying to get your underpants on after your trousers.

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Once the discussion determines if an atheist's life is pointless, perhaps someone could explain why belief in a god gives a point to the believer's life. I don't see it, myself. Perhaps some of you good people do see it.

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@edgarblythe,

Just from observing my siblings, they believe in god. They believe their prayers are answered, and also believes the reason our family have accomplished so much is because of their faith in god. There's no way to make them change their feelings and ideas about their religion, and I don't even try - even as they continue to tell me that they pray for me.

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If being a child to a god for a lifetime is having purpose, that's pretty silly. Morality? Human history has gathered morality along the way, from an instinctual past to having to sort things out. To live without some kind of morality would be suicidal. I don't see having faith as having purpose, of itself.

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@edgarblythe,

I think, for many people, religion has a purpose in their lives. Although they are not any worse nor better than anybody else (morally speaking), they have a crutch with which to "lean" on when they feel vulnerable. It provides a form of security in their lives.

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I think for many it's a cultural thing and for many it's a buffer against the fear of death. Those born into it tend towards the former, and converts towards the latter as far as I can tell.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

Once the discussion determines if an atheist's life is pointless, perhaps someone could explain why belief in a god gives a point to the believer's life. I don't see it, myself. Perhaps some of you good people do see it.

Who could honestly say that they could explain the meaning of a belief for you and actually mean it? Or be truthful about it? If you do not believe that you see one? One can only understand a belief if they truly want to believe they do...Or believe they can...No one can get you to personally understand the meaning of a belief for you, unless you wanted to believe you could personally understand it....

Clear your mind, and think of any single thing that could honestly get you to believe anything that you did not see, or believe was true...etc...now tell me what was this thing? Was it a God? That is only the beginning of what a belief is, and how one could only find it by looking for it themselves...if they freely want to do it...

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Although they are not any worse nor better than anybody else (morally speaking), they have a crutch with which to "lean" on when they feel vulnerable. It provides a form of security in their lives.

If we are truly not any better or worse...What crutch do you think you lean on when you feel vulnerable? Either that simply can not be true...Or we all have crutches...

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@FBM,

Quote:

I think for many it's a cultural thing and for many it's a buffer against the fear of death. Those born into it tend towards the former, and converts towards the latter as far as I can tell.

How can anyone believe that they know? If they do not believe that they believe? Is it possible to know you believe? And why people believe they believe? And believe they know?

Now, is it possible to claim that you know that you know without having a belief that you know?

Atheists often claim that theists are wrong because they are ignorant and believe they know everything...

When in actuality it is the atheist position that rejects beliefs, so they either must be saying they know nothing or everything because they believe nothing, and know nothing or everything...Or they must be saying that they know that they know nothing or everything, because they do not believe that they do...

How is it possible to know that you know anything? Or claim that you do not know anything, if you do not believe that you do?

And based upon your above quote...And what I have posted...Which one do you believe that I am? And why do you believe it?

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Atheists... Your life is pointless

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