Atheists... Your life is pointless

edgar,

I understand. I am just saying that I believe churches can be affluent. Huge ministeries can reach huge amounts of people. It's just very important that we check these things out before we make decisions about them. Things are not always as they seem to be. Now, yes, it could be entirely possible this church is just as you may think. Just saying we need to use discernment in all things and need to gather all the info we can.

0 Replies

edgarblythe wrote:

I should have said Church where I said Palace. They just built one down the street with a huge electric sign out front and are preparing to build what I was told to be a gymnasium. No way they need those plush seats and fancy doodads to "do God's work."

I do find that a bit extravagant. The electric sign seems a bit much. But, that is just me.

I do not disagree with the gymnasium. Our churches have started to build gymnasiums when a new church is built. The reason the church would be built is because we need larger quarters for the congregations. The reason for the gymnasium is so that we can provide outreach programs and give children and youth something to do without being on the streets. Of courese, it is provided at no charge.

I should point out that we, however, do not have plush seating. We have modest benches to remind us of the reason we are in a church service in the first place.

0 Replies

Quote:

He says he cannot depend on his own thinking to stay sober but he is convinced by that same thinking that he is his own worst enemy. Odd that he can think the worst of himself but not the better. The person who got him into the mess is the same who can get him out and, unlike the I-am-no-one thinking, there will actually be a person there to get out rather than a shell with an imaginary friend.

I am not saying anything is easy, but how does someone who thinks they are their own worst enemy ever decide that they have achieved recovery? Or does one who is nothing just stay dependent forever?

When do you get your self-esteem back? Never?

Joe(ever?)Nation

Joe, Joe, Joe. With all due respect you obviously have no knowledge of alcoholism or all of it's intricacies. Alcoholism is NOT simply a physical addiction that can be cured by discontinuing the use of alcohol. The best way to describe it is as a three-fold disease. It is a physical, mental, and spiritual sickness. It is more pyschological than physical. My own thinking got me drunk every time. My thinking tells me that I don't need help, that I can do this on my own. That is my ego and false pride talking. I have the only disease that tells me I don't have a disease. Only after time and mental as well as spiritual growth, do I begin to think rationally. In my experience, this can only be achieved by maintaing a relationship with the fellowship of fellow alcoholics.

I will always be an alcoholic. It doesn't matter how long I abstain from alcohol, I will never be "cured." My meetings are my medicine. Some diseases require chemotherapy or prescription drugs, mine requires me to stay spiritually and mentally fit.

As far as self-esteem, dependancy in no way equates with low self-esteem. You have a dependancy on oxygen, don't you?? What about food or water? Does this mean that you can't have self-esteem?

0 Replies

John Creasy,

I hear you! The hardest thing to do I think is explain to a non-alcoholic/non-addict how addiction works. It's just one of those things that unless you have experienced it, you cannot possibly understand it fully.

One thing I do know about being in recovery is that I wouldn't change a second of my entire life because of where it brought me today. So, I am saying the Serenity Prayer right now and putting Joe Nation's name in there as one of the things I cannot change. Gets me through everytime! Glad to meet another friend.

0 Replies

edgarblythe wrote:

I used to be an alcoholic and a heavy smoker, from childhood. I beat both addictions and have little problem with myself or the past in that regard. I beat smoking from disinterest. When I tried to quit, I had no success. Eventually, I lost interest in tobacco and just quit buying any. Alcoholism was harder to fight, being I come from a long line of hopeless addicts, but, through personal effort, I did it. Now I can be in a room full of drunks and not feel the slightest urge to have one. My life is fuller, and I have no one to thank but myself.

First there is no such thing as an ex-alcoholic. If you really were an alcoholic, then you still are. They way way you describe it though, it sounds like you were more of just a problem drinker. There is a difference. Please explain your "personal effort." I have also quit drinking by myself, without help from fellow alcoholics. There is a term for that, dry drunk. My thoughts were the same, my behaviors were the same, I just wasn't drinking. Basically, I was still crazy. This is not a good way to live in my experience and is very dangerous.

0 Replies

Momma Angel wrote:

John Creasy,

I hear you! The hardest thing to do I think is explain to a non-alcoholic/non-addict how addiction works. It's just one of those things that unless you have experienced it, you cannot possibly understand it fully.

One thing I do know about being in recovery is that I wouldn't change a second of my entire life because of where it brought me today. So, I am saying the Serenity Prayer right now and putting Joe Nation's name in there as one of the things I cannot change. Gets me through everytime! Glad to meet another friend.

Thanks Momma, I don't think I'm quite to the point where I'm grateful to have this disease though. Sometimes I just really want to be normal like everyone else. Crying or Very sad

0 Replies

John-do a little reading on the genetic relationship in alcohol dependency and STR loci and the inability to process THIQ exhibited by persons with a genetic marker associated with alcoholism.

If you beleiev that its a spiritual disease and that "floats yer boat" then thats what works for you.
I dont like to be part of anything that demands I become addicted to a substitute behavior. I think that such programs are not for me. (I know many other people who beat addictions by themselves)

Your 12 steppin program takes your own worth and makes you believe that youre nothing without your own "spirit guide' and his demand for abasement , as for me, Im only an alcoholic if Im drunk.
That I can whip with some couseling and a little learning of the etiology of the dysfunction.

I remember the SNL line'I used to be a heroin addict, then I became a methadone addict"

0 Replies

For years I drank as much as I could get, from the time I got off work until I went to bed. My booze was the most important part of my day. Drinking and driving til I could barely stay conscious long enough to get home. Pushing the family to the side so I could "relax after work" (drink as much undisturbed as possible). Quitting was one of the hardest things I ever did. I did it on my own. For about three years I would buy myself a single drink. Next day another single, or a six pack. Suddenly back up to a six pack a day. Quit. Then, one drink a day. Then six packs. But, I finally did it. I was an alcoholic, whether you accept that or not.

0 Replies

Adding farmerman to the I cannot change list in the Serenity Prayer.

John Creasy,

Took me a long time to get to the point of being grateful for all I have put myself through. A long time. But, the further you get in your recovery, the more you will realize this.

0 Replies

farmerman wrote:

John-do a little reading on the genetic relationship in alcohol dependency and STR loci and the inability to process THIQ exhibited by persons with a genetic marker associated with alcoholism.

If you beleiev that its a spiritual disease and that "floats yer boat" then thats what works for you.
I dont like to be part of anything that demands I become addicted to a substitute behavior. I think that such programs are not for me. (I know many other people who beat addictions by themselves)

Your 12 steppin program takes your own worth and makes you believe that youre nothing without your own "spirit guide' and his demand for abasement , as for me, Im only an alcoholic if Im drunk.
That I can whip with some couseling and a little learning of the etiology of the dysfunction.

I remember the SNL line'I used to be a heroin addict, then I became a methadone addict"

So are you an "ex-alcoholic"??

All the scientific knowledge in the world is not going to keep me from drinking if I'm not mentally and spiritually fit. You said yourself that counseling is necessary, the 12-steps is a form of counseling. The best kind IMO. My program does not tell me I'm nothing and technically nobody is forced to beleive in God. I know many agnostics in the program.

0 Replies

edgarblythe wrote:

For years I drank as much as I could get, from the time I got off work until I went to bed. My booze was the most important part of my day. Drinking and driving til I could barely stay conscious long enough to get home. Pushing the family to the side so I could "relax after work" (drink as much undisturbed as possible). Quitting was one of the hardest things I ever did. I did it on my own. For about three years I would buy myself a single drink. Next day another single, or a six pack. Suddenly back up to a six pack a day. Quit. Then, one drink a day. Then six packs. But, I finally did it. I was an alcoholic, whether you accept that or not.

OK, only you know for sure if you are an alcoholic. I know one thing though. I've never had just one drink.

Anyway, if what you said is true, then you are still an alcoholic, all you have to do is pick up that first drink.....

0 Replies

Wrong. I can now pick up that drink or not. And if I do, quit. It can be done.

0 Replies

John Creasy wrote:

As far as self-esteem, dependancy in no way equates with low self-esteem. You have a dependancy on oxygen, don't you?? What about food or water? Does this mean that you can't have self-esteem?

You don't think so? How much self-esteem can you muster after your wife drags you in from the front yard and washes the puke off your clothes for the third time in a month?

If you HAD self esteem, you wouldn't drink yourself into a stupor and drag those around you with you.

0 Replies

Momma Angel wrote:

Joe Nation,

Ok, I now know you are definitely not an addict or an alcoholic.

The worst thing for an addict or an alcoholic to think is that they are not their own worst enemy WHEN IT COMES TO THE ADDICTION (caps for emphasis only). If an addict or alcoholic starts thinking in any way that they can control their addiction, they will be right back into it in a heartbeat! I can tell you this from personal experience.

We always keep that point in mind so we don't go back to our addiction. Yes, we focus on the good things. We focus on our recovery. We focus on the blessings in our life and not what has happened but what is the next right thing to do.

Once again, as others have pointed out, this sort of mental self-flagellation is completely unnecessary. It is no surprise that organized religion and quasi-religious groups such as AA propound such a self-image, it works to the advantage of the control system which is at the heart of organized religion and such organizations.

I gave up alcohol without benefit of clergy, and without benefit of a "belief in a highter power," and i did it without beating myself up, and without trashing my self-respect. I began 15 years ago, and was sober, completely within less than five years. I've been "sober" for ten years. AA would not think so--i had a single beer (although i didn't finish it) a little over two years ago. We were at a wedding reception, and when one of the guests learned it was my birthday, she bought me a beer. I drank it (most of it) to be polite. But i don't give a tinker's damn if the control-freak clowns in some perverse ministry, or at AA think that makes me a drunk. I know for myself that i have no interest in drinking, or hanging out with those who drink routinely. I've not had as much as a six pack altogether in ten years, and on no occassion did i fear that i would return to the habits of the bad old days.

All of this was possible precisely because i am self-respecting, precisely because i know that i am the only one responsible for my character and its expression.

This entire "we are not worthy" thesis is just one of many reasons why i despise organized religion.

0 Replies

Set,

That is wonderful for you. What we are trying to get across is that it is not the same for everyone and that if it doesn't work the way it did for you for some, and it works another way, so what?

0 Replies

Your "so what" is absurd--the so what is that the system you tout calls for the destruction of the self-respect and self-reliance of the individual. That's disgusting and hateful--that's so what. Far better to restore or build the self-respect and self-reliance of the individual, rather than tear it down and make them a Jesus-junkie (let alone the doughnuts and coffee--insert appropriate rolling-eyed emoticon here . . .),

0 Replies

The AA people seem to want you to build an addiction to being taken care of by them.

0 Replies

John Creasy-- A 12 step program is the eschange of one habit for another, IMO. I went to detox because alcohol, unlike drugs can kill you in withdrawal. Yeh , I had counseling, It was a program of one on one with another ex-alky who wasnt full of liptitudes and prayers and pity for my wounded soul.
I lasted in counseling about 3 or 4 months after my detox and then Id go back every half year or so, I havent been to a "Quik rinse" for about 10 or more years. I dont consider my self an alcoholic. I was once, I dont drink at all, because my chemistry and genetics cant handle it.

The "dry drunk" epithet is pathetic. You try to keep sober in whatever fashion you need, Im enjoying my abstemious life. Please Dont lecture me, after all youre the one that posted this thread with the really "Christian" title.
I rest my case

0 Replies

Set,

Have you ever been to AA Meetings. Do you know what it means to work the 12 Steps? Have you worked with others trying to recover from alcoholism and addiction?

If you think that AA destroys self-respect, you are so misinformed! What destroys the self-respect is the drug or the alcohol and what we do when we are drunk or high. In recovery we learn to take responsibility for our actions. In taking responsibility for our actions, our self-respect grows.

Edgar,

I can only tell you that you also seem to have misconceptions about AA. You think AA takes care of their members? You will find at AA and NA and all the others that unless YOU yourself want to get sober/clean and stay sober/clean they can do nothing to help you. No one can do it for you. You have to be willing to work at it. Yes, for some, they don't need AA and NA. Some don't believe these are really alcoholics or addicts. I can't say. I can only tell you how it is for me.

No one comes to find you if you don't make meetings. No one forces you to go to meetings. No one forces you to do anything. What AA and NA and the others are about is sharing their experiences, strengths, and hopes with one another so we know we are not alone and that we are all willing to help.

Unless you attend meetings and work the steps, IMO it would be very hard for you to understand.

It has nothing to do with debasement! It has everything to do with making your life better and doing the right things.

0 Replies

Yes, MOAN, i have been to AA meetings. It is so cordial of you to assume that anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant.

0 Replies

Atheists... Your life is pointless

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know