Atheists... Your life is pointless

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

You KNOW that how?

Or is it just a "belief"...like the "beliefs" the theists have that there is a Heaven and a Hell?

I think he just wants to exclude those types of concepts from our beliefs until we have some evidence that proves them to be a part of reality.

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@spendius,

I bet if Bob started a religion you would be one of the first to follow.

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@reasoning logic,

Quote:

It is a nice thought but when you go through a transition such as that don't you need to have a war to get others to believe this new religion? We might need to burn some nonbelievers at the cross or something.

No offense mate...As it is your own opinion...And you are my friend...And I never would not be yours as we have said before...But that was not really necessary...It really was not...And it is not even because I can defend that, cause I can't...As it has happened...But do you honestly even believe that this is an acurate statement yourself? Or believe that if a God exists people who do these things, or steer planes into buildings or burn people at the foot of a cross...Actually symbolize any potential God(s)?

You do realize that these people who do these things are just Satanists, who claim to know a God...right? I hope so...

I can say from my own perspective as a theist...That atheists get the picture about God more than a Satanist actually does...

Even though a Satanist is a theist by defintion and an atheist claims they have no beliefs...

I have to be honest here...That did just sound like a dig mate...Cause it does not even sound like you believe this...although you said it...

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@reasoning logic,

He did and I do. And there are a lot of us too. We are Bobcats. And we can recognise each other on sight.

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@reasoning logic,

Quote:

I think he just wants to exclude those types of concepts from our beliefs until we have some evidence that proves them to be a part of reality.

Then what would honestly make anyone who thinks this way...Think that a religion, belief, or God is a good thing? Unless they already realize they are trying to deny things that they already know?

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank, I have to ask you...Because the true Agnostic is the most astonishing position one could have in my opinion...And it really baffles me to even think about...

First let me say that I believe you 100% are telling the truth in that you do not know whether you believe a God exists or does not...

But since you do not know many things...

Is it possible you do know that you would like to believe an afterlife exists so that you will one day know everything you do not right now? Even if all these things are revealed by these said "evil Gods"? And is it possible they are not evil? And you would believe if you did not believe they are evil?

I am just asking this because the true Agnostic interests me a lot...And I would like to get to know how they think...

Most atheists and theists will say that they can't be neither, and have to be one or the other, as one choice of the 2 will ultimately happen...

Although atheists say they are closer to irreligious...

And even agnostics kinda say as much cause they say that all Gods that are portrayed in scriptures depict an evil god

Would you say that you also do not know the answers to the questions I have asked above in this post? Or do you have a beleif about them?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

There's an ancient tradition of suspending judgement on any non-evident metaphysical issue, but its not well-known, maybe because it's not as much fun as arguing about stuff.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pyrrho/

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@FBM,

But if you are saying yourself it is not even natural to feel this way...Or natural to suspend judgments...Or natural to work against it...Why would you think it is true? Or proven? Whether someone says that it has been or not? That is exactly what faith itself is...

The only way it could be proven to someone is by accepting it as truth itself...And taking a leap that this person is correct based upon your own subjective acceptances....Of what "truth", and "Proof" and "evidence" is...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Do you have a compulsion to demonstrate that you don't know a goddamned thing about atheists? You are always shooting your mouth off about people of whom you are clearly ignorant.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank, your golf knowledge is superior to mine...Who do you think has a good chance to win this week? For my fantasy golf league...I know it is a projection...And it is not a big deal how I do...So no worries if the person does bad...Any good picks?

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@FBM,

Quote:

There's an ancient tradition of suspending judgement on any non-evident metaphysical issue, but its not well-known, maybe because it's not as much fun as arguing about stuff.

That's right FB. With no metaphysical issues to go at atheists are reduced to reading everything off an instrument from a compass to an opinion poll. That is why they are not much fun. They can't possibly have a sense of humour because instruments, being inanimate, can't have that important sense. But they can't be wrong because instruments don't know right from wrong and thus, logically, all the readings are right. By definition.

Back to Yorick eh?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

But if you are saying yourself it is not even natural to feel this way...Or natural to suspend judgments...Or natural to work against it...Why would you think it is true? Or proven? Whether someone says that it has been or not? That is exactly what faith itself is...

The only way it could be proven to someone is by accepting it as truth itself...And taking a leap that this person is correct based upon your own subjective acceptances....Of what "truth", and "Proof" and "evidence" is...

Where did I say anything about what is natural or true? I just said that there's this ancient tradition in which people suspend judgement.

There's this logic thing called the quadrilemma. Yes, No, Neither Yes nor No, both Yes and No. It's a bitch to wrap yer head 'round, but it feels good tryin'. Wink

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
There's an ancient tradition of suspending judgement on any non-evident metaphysical issue, but its not well-known, maybe because it's not as much fun as arguing about stuff.

That's right FB. With no metaphysical issues to go at atheists are reduced to reading everything off an instrument from a compass to an opinion poll. That is why they are not much fun. They can't possibly have a sense of humour because instruments, being inanimate, can't have that important sense. But they can't be wrong because instruments don't know right from wrong and thus, logically, all the readings are right. By definition.

Back to Yorick eh?

The tradition I referred to isn't atheist; it's skeptical. It accepts direct experience and necessary inference derived from direct experience. It refuses to make knowledge claims about non-evident metaphysical issues. At least that's what the books say about it.

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@FBM,

Quote:

Where did I say anything about what is natural or true? I just said that there's this ancient tradition in which people suspend judgement.

But you say this as though you are certain it is true...So I ask you, what makes you think itself that it is true or not? Before you knew what you thought about it? Or what it was and is to you? If not leaps to find proof itself?

I did not know that it was called that...Or what it even means, though I think I understand....

I have asked many questions and perported it in those ways on purpose...

Even if you do not believe I am telling the truth as I can not prove it to you...Suppose it is for a second...What would make me consciously aware of knowing to do this without having to prove there is a thing called the quadrilemma...? Could it be explained or does that need proof to you?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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First let me say that I believe you 100% are telling the truth in that you do not know whether you believe a God exists or does not...

I'm not sure what you are saying here, SM.

I KNOW I do not "believe" gods exist...and I KNOW I do not "believe" gods do not exist. I simply do not make a guess...in either direction.

Quote:

Is it possible you do know that you would like to believe an afterlife exists so that you will one day know everything you do not right now? Even if all these things are revealed by these said "evil Gods"? And is it possible they are not evil? And you would believe if you did not believe they are evil?

You are confusing me. As far as I am concerned...a "belief" is a guess about an unknown.

I have absolutely no idea if there is an "afterlife" or not...and I think it is foolish to guess that there is or is not. So I do not do it.

I do not have any beliefs. I make some guesses....and I call them guesses; I make suppositions...and I call them suppositions; I make some estimates...and I call them estimates; I have some opinions...and I call them opinions.

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@FBM,

I just wanted to say, I enjoy the discussions and you are a gent!

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@Frank Apisa,

OK sorry...Let me see if I can reword it with how you explained it...

I wanted to say, that I am not of the opinion as others that you know things that you say you do not...

And when you say that you do not know Gods exists, nor know if Gods do not exist...I believe you are telling the truth...Because it seems that others try to make it sound like you may be lying or selctively choosing to be somthing you are not...And I do not believe them...And I believe you are being truthful...And are correct in what you say, and how you explain what you do not believe or know...

Quote:

I KNOW I do not "believe" gods exist...and I KNOW I do not "believe" gods do not exist. I simply do not make a guess...in either direction

In either a suposition, estimate, or opinion...Whichever one you would call it...

Do you think that that above is not an actual belief?

What would be the difference in your opinions if I said...I believe I do not believe Gods exist? I believe I do not believe that I believe gods do not exist?

Quote:

I have absolutely no idea if there is an "afterlife" or not...and I think it is foolish to guess that there is or is not. So I do not do it.

OK sorry again...This is why I am asking you BTW...

Is it fair to say that you would like too or currently do have an opinion, suposition, or estimate...That you would someday actually like to experience an afterlife, so that you can Know the answers to all the questions you do not know right now? Or do you do not believe you know this answer? (or are you uncertain about my question, just to make it easier) Or are you content with ceasing to exist, if it happens, and not ever knowing all the unanswered questions, as we are all agnostics?

Please let me know if you did not understand that...And I will try to reword it again...Thanks Frank!

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

I also said, and you elided, that that's what the books say about it. I have direct experience of the books and I have direct experience with suspending judgement. I don't need any beliefs about those things at all.

And thanks for the "gent" remark. But do you know that I'm a gent, or do you just believe it? Wink

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Lemme see if I can answer the substance of the questions you are asking, SM.

When discussing religion (and to some extent, philosophy) it seems to me the use of the words “believe” and “belief” lead to misunderstandings that can be avoided if other words are used.

If a person says, “I believe a GOD exists” or “I believe there are no gods”…that person, it seems to me, is disguising the fact that what he/she is actually saying is: “I am making a guess that a GOD exists” or “I am making a guess that no gods exist.”

I prefer not to do that.

I prefer NOT to make a guess on the existence or non-existence of a GOD (or gods)…but if I were to make such a guess…I would call it a guess.

As I see it, a guess only becomes a “belief” when you call it a belief.

So the answer to your question, “Do you think that that above is not an actual belief?”…is NO!

Quote:

What would be the difference in your opinions if I said...I believe I do not believe Gods exist? I believe I do not believe that I believe gods do not exist?

Jesus, SM…this is the kind of mess that occurs when the words “belief” or “believe” go bat ****.

Let’s use your sentence using the word “guess” instead of the belief word.

Would you actually say, “I guess I do not guess Gods exist?” Would you actually say, “I guess I do not guess that I guess gods do not exist?”

What does that mean?

In the specific question of the existence or non-existence of a GOD…I do not know if a God exists; I do not know if no gods exist; and I simply do not want to make a meaningless, blind guess in either direction.

In the specific question of the existence or non-existence of an “afterlife”…I do not know if there is an “afterlife”; I do not know if there is no “afterlife”; and I simply do not want to make a meaningless, blind guess in either direction.

Hope this answers your questions.

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@Frank Apisa,

What's any of that got to do with golf?

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Atheists... Your life is pointless

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