Atheists... Your life is pointless

@Cycloptichorn,

I never said that Job was 'rewarded' or that the killing of his children wasn't terrible. How else though do you show to the world Job's courage and steadfastness? If you only took away his stuff, it wouldn't be the test that God wanted it to be. It wouldn't be serious enough. I don't know of any other people that He treated in this way. Maybe the lesson was such an important one that it was worth the pain that He had to allow to be inflicted on His child Job that He loved.
I do understand your objection though, that if you follow God's commandments you should not be punished for it. Again I have no answer to this. The book of Job has always been a problem for me too.

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@Pookie53,

Pookie53 wrote:

I never said that Job was 'rewarded' or that the killing of his children wasn't terrible. How else though do you show to the world Job's courage and steadfastness? If you only took away his stuff, it wouldn't be the test that God wanted it to be. It wouldn't be serious enough. I don't know of any other people that He treated in this way. Maybe the lesson was such an important one that it was worth the pain that He had to allow to be inflicted on His child Job that He loved.
I do understand your objection though, that if you follow God's commandments you should not be punished for it. Again I have no answer to this. The book of Job has always been a problem for me too.

It is just one of several logical inconsistencies which bother me about Christianity.

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

It's necessary to "throw away" logic and common sense to "believe" what's in the bible.

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@cicerone imposter,

Whether He could have or not I don't know. But He only had ONE Son. "His only begotten Son"
There was no goodness on earth just before the flood, only evil and nastiness, except for Noah and his family.
The system of sacrifice and atonement was the covenant that Moses brought down from the mountain. It was the system set up for the Chosen people so that they could live long and prosper. One tribe of the 12 was the preists (the Levites) and they supervised the sacrifices and collected the tithes and offerings and took care of the Ark of the covenant. With these they fed themselves and the widows and orphans. They were given no land in Israel ,only this duty. When the people did as the Lord asked they prospered. When they turned away they didn't.

It's not God who needs sacrifice but people who need it (for themselves)

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@Cycloptichorn,

I do agree that things should be logical. After all my premise that God created our minds and from that, our minds love of all things logical. It does not make sense to me either that someone should suffer for no good reason. I will try and get some answers from people who know more about Job.

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@cicerone imposter,

Jesus said 'love your God with all your heart, soul MIND and strength. I don't believe that he meant for us to throw away , our minds.

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@Pookie53,

But you already have; there is no way to intelligently answer all of the contradictions, omissions and errors in the bible without having thrown away "your mind" to religion.

The bible claims this earth is 7,000 years old, but we know that this planet is 4.5 billion years old. If god is all knowing, how can the bible be the word of god?

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@cicerone imposter,

You have chosen to believe the opinions of certain 'scientists" who think the world is very old. I have investigated this at length and I believe the 'scientists' who say that the biblical account is true. It is true that once you believe in Jesus and who He is and that His word is true you do have to believe the whole thing. You cannot just pick and choose the parts you want. Certain 'scientists' have their own agendas also, so you have to be careful what you believe. When I come up against scientific methods like say carbon dating and such, I have to question the assumptions that it makes about the past. True science is about observing and testing theories. Assumptions cannot come into the picture or the science is not science anymore but conjecture.

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@Pookie53,

Pookie53 wrote:

You have chosen to believe the opinions of certain 'scientists" who think the world is very old. I have investigated this at length and I believe the 'scientists' who say that the biblical account is true.

With the big difference being, those who claim that biblical account is true, tend not to be actual scientists, but theologians and fanatics who look for evidence to support their theory, instead of the other way around.

Quote:

It is true that once you believe in Jesus and who He is and that His word is true you do have to believe the whole thing. You cannot just pick and choose the parts you want. Certain 'scientists' have their own agendas also, so you have to be careful what you believe. When I come up against scientific methods like say carbon dating and such, I have to question the assumptions that it makes about the past. True science is about observing and testing theories. Assumptions cannot come into the picture or the science is not science anymore but conjecture.

What assumptions does carbon-dating make about the past? I wonder.

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

that sounds like a blanket disparagement and could easily be turned around. Everyone is trying to prove their 'theory' don't you think. Not just the 'fanatics' as you call them. There will always be fanatics on both sides. Let' s not let them get us off track.
The assumptions in carbon dating are that the decay rate was always the same. Plus the results are so different for the same article when tested twice . Why wouldn't it be the same every time?

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@cicerone imposter,

You've thrown away your mind ci. in your eagerness to attack the Bible and the religion of our world dominating culture for the sake of making some trivial. egotistical point of no importance.

The Bible claims no such thing as you say and "we" do not know what you say we do.

The Bible is the word of God because those placed in authority this last 2,000 years say it is and it is incumbent on pipsqueaks like you to be obedient to that authority, at least in public words, or eschew the benefits it has brought you.

You show not the slightest sign of having read the Bible.

Quote:

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Does that sound like something intended to be taken literally? It sounds more like some fabulist setting in motion a debate about morals.

You atheists don't half take the Bible seriously. Do you watch movies in the same way. You take a half-assed knowledge of the Bible gleaned from some half-assed commentator who is flattering your ego and then see fit to lambast our cultural inheritance. Methinks you like lambasting too much.

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@Pookie53,

Pookie53 wrote:

that sounds like a blanket disparagement and could easily be turned around. Everyone is trying to prove their 'theory' don't you think. Not just the 'fanatics' as you call them. There will always be fanatics on both sides. Let' s not let them get us off track.

It's all about replicable results. Much of the so-called 'theories' of Creationists are not testable nor replicable in any way.

Quote:

The assumptions in carbon dating are that the decay rate was always the same. Plus the results are so different for the same article when tested twice . Why wouldn't it be the same every time?

Are the results different, when tested twice? I haven't seen much evidence that this is true.

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

I agree its about replicable results....without assumptions being included in the test.
Creationist Scientists are pretty much blackballed from all the 'scientific' journals so how would you hear about them? There is some kind of vested interest in the popular scientists of the day to keep the status quo and not rock the evolution boat. They are the modern day 'flat earth society' which by the way the Bible does not support and never did. Maybe some popes did?
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth" Isaiah

Evolution is such a sacred cow and with no good reason. The theory blows and it's only so thoroughly entrenched in our world because "Without God, everything is permissable" Evolution fights against Genesis and without Genesis you might as well throw away the Bible. That is what so many want to do. Then they can do as they please, whatever is right in their own eyes, with no final authority.
Of course that's just a theory. Smile

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@Cycloptichorn,

Tell me Cyclo--what sort of kick do you get out of knowing that the earth in 4.5 billion years old? Does it really feel to you like a useful piece of knowledge?

I think you have a more personal motive for banging on about it endlessly.

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@Pookie53,

Pookie wrote:

Isaac was always about trust. Abraham and Sarah did not trust God.

And how is that Isaac's fault? What did Isaac do to deserve a mock execution? Note that mock executions qualify as torture under US law. If god had been an US officer in Iraq, he would do up to 10 years in jail for torturing this innocent child. I respectfully suggest that federal law reflects a higher standard of ethics than the actions of the Biblical god.

Pookie53 wrote:

Even though God took his children (among other things) He did return to him the same number of children and much greater riches in the end .

What good does that do from Job's children's point of view? They're just as dead. They have suffered just as grave an injustice as if the new children hadn't been born. God's treatment of them is patently unjust.

Pookie wrote:

I can't answer this question, God only knew if the city of Jericho was evil or not. I'm sorry I don't know. I do know from the Bible that God asked many times in battle that all should be killed. Because if they didn't then the children they spared would grow up and come and kill them for revenge.

So the killing of innocent children is justified because God already mass-murdered their parents. What kind of justification is this? How is it just to kill an innocent child because it may or may not avenge its parents?

Pookie53 wrote:

Pharoah had many plagues set upon him ( frogs, locusts, blood rivers etc) in the days before God killed the firstborns. All he had to do was let the Isrealites go. Again I don't know the mind of God.

If you do not know the mind of god, you have no basis for saying he is holy. All we can do is to judge him by the evidence available. And on the evidence available, the god of the old testament is a monster.

Pookie53 wrote:

As to your conclusion, Are you a parent ? Do you discipline your child or not?

I don't have children. I certainly wouldn't kill my neighbor's children becaus my neighbor wronged me. And that is the moral equivalent of what god did in the examples I gave.

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@Pookie53,

Foofie wrote:

Quote:

Evolution is such a sacred cow and with no good reason.

This is the best clue why religion is dangerous. This is what they continue to promote in our schools and our courts.

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@Thomas,

I have taken an extra day to think about your questions. Being a fairly new believer I feel inadequately qualified to answer the hard questions you ask. I did find a very good answer through Google.
Here is the link

http://www.gotquestions.org/is-God-cruel.html

It is fairly short and to the point. If you have the time to read it and comment I would be pleased to continue to discuss it.
It even has a paragraph on Job.
God created us, and we cannot pretend to be smarter, kinder, or a better judge that He is. The created is not greater than the Creator.
The article does not specifically address the death of innocent children that you find so awful (as it is) but Jesus said:
"Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
So , I take that to mean that little children all go to heaven.
The time we spend on earth is so short compared to eternity. But it is here that we decide where we want to spend that eternity. Heaven is an incredible place that will feel more like home than any home ever did. It is not boring in any way.
I want to go there , I want to spend my eternity with God, not with those who rebelled against him in their pride.

In "the great divorce" CS Lewis describes hell as not a place of torture but just a place where people blather on endlessly about themselves and their own accomplishments , ad nauseum. They don't want Heaven, they are too self absorbed to be there.

If you don't believe in eternity and heaven then of course, death is a horrible fate. But earth is just the place where we decide if we want to serve ourselves or serve a holy God.

Thanks for continuing to answer my posts and for not resorting to name-calling! I appreciate it.

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@Pookie53,

"If you don't believe in eternity and heaven then of course, death is a horrible fate. But earth is just the place where we decide if we want to serve ourselves or serve a holy God."

I don't believe that death is a horrible fate, death is something we must all face alone, and in doing so accept it as inevitable. to accept that all things come to an end, to embrace that fact, probably rewards the individual with more serenity and inner peace than what faith in God could give someone.

the hope that there is another life beyond this one is likely filled with much more anxiety than an acceptance of one's finitude.

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@Pookie53,

Pookie53 wrote:

God created us

Says the Bible. Other religion's holy books say that somebody else, or something else, created us. Remember that I am not a Christian. I read the Bible with no more reverence than I read the Iliad. So your argument doesn't fly for me.

But even if I tentatively accept it, here's the next thing I don't understand: what exactly to you mean when you say things like: "God is great, god is good, let us thank him for our food"? If everything God does is good simply because God did it, it doesn't really mean anything. All it means is "God is whatever God is." Stated this way, it is true of course -- but how is it interesting enough to be worth affirming?

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@existential potential,

Foofie, Death is not a "horrible fate." It's natural; all living things die sooner or later. Without death, this planet could not sustain all the life on it.

Some of us are fortunate to live longer lives - many reaching over 100 years, but the majority of human life ends much sooner.

Life spans are dictated by genes and environment; not by any god as you believe.

Natural disasters are not controlled by your god; it's another part of earth's nature. The great flood described in the bible never happened; science has proven that. Simple knowledge of geology is all one needs to understand that a great flood never happened.

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Atheists... Your life is pointless

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