Atheists... Your life is pointless

That's not what I'm talking about ci - I'm saying that the effort to make sense of one's world, whether through art or religion, is a logical and thus, not irrational, but wholly understandable and rational urge, in and of itself.

Whether others interpret one's artistic or spiritual expressions as logical or rational has nothing to do with the rationality or irrationality of the urge itself.

I agree 100% with the emphasis on religion.

Aidan, I appreciate your perspective. I do find room in my language for a kind of aesthetic logic, a set of unconscious principles for the aesthetic organization of purely sensuous colors, forms and spatial relationships. I think that was what the design classes I took decades ago were about.
And perhaps I should replace irrational with arational. The former refers, I supposed, to FAULTY rationalism while the latter to some that transcends logic.

Yes! That's a good way to describe it.
And expressing or experiencing something that is transcendent to me, like art, music, nature, or kindness is what makes me believe in the concept of god.
Where does that COME from?
When I listened to the new Mozart pieces Walter posted - I was struck again by what an amazing talent existed in that small child.
I can look at Mozart (and people like him) as some sort of a god, because they do help me transcend the ordinary - or I can believe that there is some force for good that imbues what would otherwise be a harsh and temporary existence, from which we won't emerge with anything, with flashes of brilliance and beauty and wonderment deserving of awe.
And one can call that what one likes, but I don't think this world is without good that does NOT come from man or woman or logic.

Since I have not read the Q'uran I cannot make any comparisons. I have only read the quotes from it that are publicized the most in media and are the ones that are assumed to be the ones used to justify killing and suicide. I want to read it soon, as soon as I finish the three books I am reading now.... I think that a person with an agenda could take almost any religious text and twist it to their own purposes, just as some athiest leaders have taken evolutionism and twisted it to their purposes, i.e. justifing the killing of 'inferior' or 'less evolved' groups of people etc. I believe that a person must separate the God from the people who would use anything to further their own plans.
The God of the Old Testament was not 'nasty' He was Holy. When His people turned to Him and obeyed His laws, they prospered. When they turned away from Him and became debauched and immoral and sacrificed their children on altats to other gods, then He caused things to happen to them that would eventually cause them to turn back to Him. Such as enslavement by other peoples, destruction of their cities, etc. . They were His chosen people, His children and if you love a child then you discipline the child. It may seem extreme to us now but I don't think He did anything that wasn't necessary.
Eventually though after endless repetitions of the same scenario with no change in behavior, it was time for Him to come here in person and change the covenant (agreement). Since you have read the Bible , I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know already.
Jesus came so that ' all could be saved' not just the Jews anymore.
I'm going to quote CS Lewis again below :
"He went about talking as if He were God. He said He could forgive sins, any sins. Not just the ones commited against Him but any sins, without consulting those who were wronged. He acted as if He were the injured party in all offences. This makes sense only if He was the God whose laws are broken and whose love is wounded in every sin. In the mouth of any speaker who is not God these words would imply a silliness and conceit unrivaled by any other character in history.
Yet even His enemies, when they read the Gospels do not usually get the impression of silliness and conceit. Christ says He is humble and meek and we believe Him not noticing that if He were merely a man, humility and meekness are the very last characteristics we could attribute to some of His sayings.
A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a 'great moral teacher' (as some say) He would be a lunatic or something worse. "

God is not 'nasty' (people are nasty) He is Holy and He loves us so much. Still we must choose freely and it is your perrogative to disbelieve.

OK but it has to happen right in front of you doesn't it? Otherwise you will just say that it has no corroboration or it was a lie or the people were crazy etc. So you think that God should just perform a miracle for each and every person so that we can all know He is real and believe?
Jesus performed many miracles right in front of people and many of them did not believe even though they saw it with their own eyes. Even some of His own disciples ! He fed 5000 one time and 4000 another, healed many, but there certainly weren't 9000 people following Him in the very end when they crucified Him.
The existance of this universe and this planet and me and my brain and my ability to know right from wrong is enough for me to believe in a creator. When I read Jesus's words in the New Testament I can find no fault in them, only wisdom. Especially when I learn the context and the culture and grasp what He was trying to tell me. And why He came here and why He had to die and rise again. It all makes perfect sense to me. I will ask you what I asked Thomas, have you read the New Testament? With an open and fair mind?

Pookie, According to people of religion, god performs miracles every day. The kind of miracle we'd like to see is no different than what is described in the bible. You know, parting of the river, feeding thousands with a few loaves of bread and fishes, turning people into salt, and a world flood. Maybe, some people can save themselves by climbing Mt Everest.

According to the bible, he used to do stuff like that all the time.



How do you know any of that is true? You don't know that any of it actually happened and there's no evidence outside of one book.



That certainly isn't enough for me. There is a great possibility that such things exist outside of any creator's influence.



I've read the entire bible twice in my life, and sections of it many more times.

I think that you are displaying what we call 'self-fulfilling prophecies.' Saying that you get what Jesus was 'trying to tell you' is a hint. You don't really know what he (or the person who wrote the story) was trying to tell you.

Cycloptichorn

Pookie53, extraordinary, excellent post. I accept all you say.
Since you say this all so elegantly and sensibly: Please discuss, a little, what Jesus meant when he said the Kingdom of Heaven is "within us." He also said the "work" (healings, exorcisms) was done by this indwelling (something, someone) and that we could all do the same even more so.

When we are creative (growing churches, painting pictures, growing gardens, and yes, managing armies and huge corporations with great success) well, aren't we then in contact with this same part of us, also? Isn't this only "love" and is love some thing or is it us loving something into being? And, would you say that Jesus is actually a man who is in contact with this source, or is actually God. Might we become God, also, by having this love come alive in us?

I just can't see God sending Jesus here to put on a great show, then leave. He is our example - so we can do the same as he?

The bigger question is why does god have to sacrifice his only begotten son? It's a symbolism that misses the whole point of being god. Does it mean god made a mistake by creating man, and had to sacrifice his "son" to redeem himself?

Besides, sacrifice to gods is old hat stuff; they've been doing that long before christianity was created.

You should have more questions than answers from god's sacrifice.

Virgin birth? What was god doing in Mary's sex parts?

you will never be satisfied by any miracle, that is my point. You will never be convinced by a miracle, even the kind you describe .
I am not ashamed to say I need Jesus..... Life without Jesus is pointless to ME anyway.
You don't need Him, You are your own. You can choose to live without God forever.

Pookie, You're using a negative to prove a negative. You should try studying a little logic (common sense) in your posts.

That is true. Even if the agenda is merely to read the books and make sense of them.


Are you serious? Let's test this assertion of yours against four specific cases, in increasing order of nastiness:

• What do you think of the mock-execution of Isaac that God ordered? God had no reason except that he had a point to make about obedience, and he wanted to get this point across to Abraham. What did Isaac do to deserve this torture? How was that holy?
  
  
• What do you think of God encouraging Satan to kill Job's family, just to settle a friendly discussion with Satan? There is no showing in the Bible that Job's family did anything do to deserve this. How was this capricious slaughter holy?
  
  
• What do you think of God enticing and aiding Joshua lay siege on the City of Jericho, killing "every man, woman, and child" according to the bible? There's no showing that the citizens of Jericho had done anything to deserve this. Their only sin was that Joshua wished to conquer them, they didn't wish to be conquered, and Good took Josua's side over theirs. How was that holy?
  
  
• What do you think of God's behavior during Moses' exodus? He had his angels angels slaughter the firstborn of every Egyptian household. There is no showing in the Bible that these firstborns did anything to deserve this. This was a holocaust, pure and simple. How was this holocaust holy?

From looking at these cases, I don't think it takes an agenda to think poorly of the Biblical Good. I think he really is "the most unpleasant character in all fiction." (Richard Dawkins)

I am not a Bible scholar by any means, But I think He was speaking of the Holy Spirit, the third in the Holy Trinity. And through the Holy Spirit we could do 'even greater things than He'
I believe that Jesus is God and he IS love.
Jesus came here to live a perfect life as an example to us, to show us how to live. He had to be sacrificed because He was the final and last substitution for the animal sacrifices of the Old Testament. The only way to atone for sin then was to sacrifice an animal. This was also their sacrifice because it cost them something (the animal they owned). The passover sacrifice was an unblemished lamb. Hence Jesus is called the Lamb of God. He is the final unblemished Lamb and we do not have to sacrifice animals anymore to atone for sin. Jesus paid the final price for all time because He alone was worthy to do so. Now we only have to believe .... such a simple thing.......for some.

He showed His incredible love for us by sacrificing His Son. He created the old covenant (Old Testament) to show people first how impossible it is to be holy on your own. That lesson had to be taught first so people would understand that they NEEDED a savior. Now all you have to do is believe and Jesus atones for all your sin. He washes you. This was always Gods plan.
I say all you have to do is believe but of course from that belief comes everything else. Learning of Jesus , His life and teachings and following His commands which are Love God with all your heart, soul , MIND and strength and Love your neighbor as yourself. From this comes all good things.

I will keep trying

Isaac was always about trust. Abraham and Sarah did not trust God. They were old and thought that God would never give them a child. So they decided to take matters into their own hands and have Abraham sleep with Hagar. Ishmael resulted.( The Father of the Arabs) God then gave them the son He had promised anyway. But He had to show Abraham what trust was.
Jesus redeems Peter the same way after he denied Him 3 times. After the resurrection Jesus asks Peter 3 times if he love Him. Its a way of atonement for not trusting.

Just as Jesus (God Himself) came and suffered, so did Job suffer to be an example to us. Even though God took his children (among other things) He did return to him the same number of children and much greater riches in the end . God has a plan and a reason for all suffering and we won't know it all until we are with Him in Heaven.

I can't answer this question, God only knew if the city of Jericho was evil or not. I'm sorry I don't know. I do know from the Bible that God asked many times in battle that all should be killed. Because if they didn't then the children they spared would grow up and come and kill them for revenge.

Pharoah had many plagues set upon him ( frogs, locusts, blood rivers etc) in the days before God killed the firstborns. All he had to do was let the Isrealites go. Again I don't know the mind of God.

As to your conclusion, Are you a parent ? Do you discipline your child or not?
If not I fear for your neighbors.

this probably doesn't follow on from the last post, but I was just interested by JLNobodies idea of transcending logic.

couldn't the idea of "transcendence", which we get from things like art, music, nature etc, couldn't that just be another word for escapism?

Aiden said that he looks at Mozart and others because "they do help me transcend the ordinary".

"transcend the ordinary", momentarily escape ordinary life for a while.

is not the idea of God just a another means to "transcend" (escape) from ordinary daily life for a little while?

Wow, this is really wild.

Do you honestly think that Job was 'rewarded' with more children and wealth, and that would somehow overcome the pain that the loss of his whole family would create? I find this rather hard to believe. Even if Job was punished as 'an example' for everyone else, it still wasn't fair, b/c he was Godly and had done nothing wrong. It makes a mockery of the idea of following God's laws and commandments, if he is free and willing to punish people whenever he wants - as an example, not based on their actions whatsoever.

The Book of Job highlights the major inconsistencies with the heavily Paternalistic Christian religion - in the end, it isn't about some unchangeable idea of right and wrong, it's about appeasing a capricious being, whose ineffable plan can never be known. No thanks.

Cycloptichorn

Incredible sacrifice? What sacrifice? He's the "creator" of all things, and he could have thousands of sons - all virgin births. He killed thousands with the great flood. What kind of "sacrifice" was that? Human sacrifice for god? Why does god need any sacrifice?