homosexuality is not 'unnatural'

Bella Dea wrote:

Why a condition? By saying that you are the one making it a bad thing to be. Saying it's wrong, without actually saying the words "it's wrong". That's like saying being a drug addict is ok because you choose it. But if you are gay by birth, you must be evil.

Well, my point is that that's what you appear to be saying. It's not a choice, it's something that just is. Which is akin to it being a condition, like downs syndrome, or diabetes. Which it isn't.

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They have no choice. You aren't gay (i don't think.... ) and obviously have not gone though "coming out" with someone to know that there isn't any glory in turning your back on your family and life to feel comfortable in your own skin.

I do know about this, I promise. But you are not addressing what i'm saying, you're using similar words, but not catching my meaning. They do have a choice. Being attracted to someone is sometimes unavoidable. Deciding to act on those attractions is, thus it is a choice. They choose to come out. It's not forced upon them anymore than a beer is forced upon a potential alcoholic.

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I knew my friend was gay long before he came out. I just knew it. Are you saying that he unconsicously chose to give off gay vibes? Or are you saying he chose to have to live a secret life because he is a teacher and no one can no about his partner? That he can't even talk about his love for another human being because he might be fired for it? That he has to constantly defend himself against the world? Why in god's name would anyone choose that?

I honestly don't know why someone would choose that. That doesn't alter the fact that they do choose it. I also don't know why someone would choose to shoot heroine, or to go to war, or to fling themselves out of an airplane with a bedsheet strapped to their back.

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Well, at least we agree that we don't agree.

Mmkay.

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yitwail wrote:

i haven't been following this thread either, but apparently no one has observed that chimpanzees are known to engage in homosexual behavior frequently. since chimps closely resemble humans genetically, perhaps there's a common genetic basis for homosexuality. i personally don't have an opinion about it, nor do i know of any research along these lines.

Aye, I've heard it has more to do with dominance and raging hormones than anything else. But like you, i've read no studies about it.

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This si a diffrent outlook i have on it. What if the rise in homosexuality was natures way of stopping overpopulation. If every person was strait and having sex with the opposit sex the odds of babys being born is much greater

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Questioner wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:

Why a condition? By saying that you are the one making it a bad thing to be. Saying it's wrong, without actually saying the words "it's wrong". That's like saying being a drug addict is ok because you choose it. But if you are gay by birth, you must be evil.

Well, my point is that that's what you appear to be saying. It's not a choice, it's something that just is. Which is akin to it being a condition, like downs syndrome, or diabetes. Which it isn't.
)

Which it is. In most cases.
It is a matter of science - not a matter of mood or trend. Or choice.

Science.
It's a good thing.

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dominance makes sense, except Bonobos seem to engage in it as well, and they're supposed to be more cooperative than the Common chimps.

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ehBeth wrote:

Which it is. In most cases.
It is a matter of science - not a matter of mood or trend. Or choice.

Science.
It's a good thing.

So you're saying homosexuality is a condition? Not a choice?

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TheIntro wrote:

This si a diffrent outlook i have on it. What if the rise in homosexuality was natures way of stopping overpopulation. If every person was strait and having sex with the opposit sex the odds of babys being born is much greater

Anyone feel like commenting on this? I can't bring myself to do it.

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It's not a matter of my opinion, or my statement.
It's a matter of science.

Not a choice.

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ehBeth wrote:

It's not a matter of my opinion, or my statement.
It's a matter of science.

Not a choice.

Ok, then explain the science to me, or direct me to links about it. I've not read anything (obviously) about this, and you seem fairly sure.

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TheIntro's theory is interesting. It might explain why homosexuality is found in other animal species. Maybe. It would be interesting to see if anyone's done particular research in that area - is it found more often in animal groups that are reaching the limits of resources in a particular territory?

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TheIntro wrote:

This si a diffrent outlook i have on it. What if the rise in homosexuality was natures way of stopping overpopulation. If every person was strait and having sex with the opposit sex the odds of babys being born is much greater

Homosexuality has been around longer than you think. It didn't just happen yesterday.

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Questioner wrote:

I do know about this, I promise. But you are not addressing what i'm saying, you're using similar words, but not catching my meaning. They do have a choice. Being attracted to someone is sometimes unavoidable. Deciding to act on those attractions is, thus it is a choice. They choose to come out. It's not forced upon them anymore than a beer is forced upon a potential alcoholic.

Oh Q, that's like saying you can't marry the woman of your dreams because your parents object.

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Bella Dea wrote:

Oh Q, that's like saying you can't marry the woman of your dreams because your parents object.

It's saying nothing of the kind. In fact it in no way shape or form resembles that. I guess I'm missing something here. Either that or you're screen needs to be cleaned up a bit. Smile

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Questioner wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:

Oh Q, that's like saying you can't marry the woman of your dreams because your parents object.

It's saying nothing of the kind. In fact it in no way shape or form resembles that. I guess I'm missing something here. Either that or you're screen needs to be cleaned up a bit.

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They do have a choice. Being attracted to someone is sometimes unavoidable.

So is being attracted to your wife.

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Deciding to act on those attractions is, thus it is a choice.

So is making love to your wife. You are saying that gays can be gay inside as long as they chose not to act out their gayness.

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They choose to come out. It's not forced upon them anymore than a beer is forced upon a potential alcoholic.

No it isn't forced on them. It isn't forced on you to love your wife. But you do and it's acceptable. Why? Because society says so.

If your mom hated her, wouldn't you feel torn about your life?

I am saying it's like you loving your wife on the inside and not being able to act it out to her because someone else doesn't like the fact that you love her in a sexual way.

Am I wrong here?

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Bella,

Well, that one comment about not having as many babies...well, probably won't like this, but we are being honest here. To me, that just sounds like justifying the behavior.

Now, about the comment about being gay on the inside and not acting it out being ok? Hmmm. I am not quite sure what to think. I believe it is definitely the act that God considers a sin. Now, if someone were trying to abstain from that behavior because they felt it was wrong, then yes, I would say that is a yes, it is ok. If they still (don't know the right word here so please realize that) want(?) to be gay and just don't engage in it, I would say that is at the very least, less ok.

Does that make any sense? I hope so.

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eB, another interesting aspect is birth order; first born males are less likely to be gay than younger siblings, in humans, but highly doubt there's any animal studies of this phenomenon. anyway, it's not necessarily a result of differences in upbringing. for instance, i found this quote:

In the mid 1990s, researcher Ray Blanchard studied families in which there is a male child with a homosexual orientation. He found that a gay man is more likely to have older brothers than older sisters. He found that the probability that a male child will grow up as a homosexual increases by about 33% for each older brother that he has. Blanchard suggests that this effect may be caused by an immune response within the mother during pregnancy.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus4.htm

i think the explanation isn't to prevent overpopulation but rather to maximize the chances that the oldest male child, who would tend to be the strongest, most developed, etc, will have many offspring.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Bella,

Well, that one comment about not having as many babies...well, probably won't like this, but we are being honest here. To me, that just sounds like justifying the behavior.

I am justifying the behavior with an example just as ridiculous as the notion that gays were created for population control. Women who can't have babies were created for population control? Tell that to a couple trying to conceive. There might be many reasons why a couple can't have kids but I doubt god would be so "mean" as to punish someone for population control.

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Bella,

I was referring to TheIntro's comment, not yours. I don't find you justifying anything. I think you are just putting some pretty reasonable questions out there. Hope I didn't offend.

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It is, however, noteworthy that many studies of fecundity in the "third world," and in the industrialized world suggest that fertility declines steeply when the survival of offspring is assured (as in the industrialized world) and that fertility sharply increases in circumstances in which the survival of offspring is not assured (as in the "third world"). It is also worth noting that for people in pre-industrial societies in which there is no provision for retirement security, many children provide the opportunity to rely upon one or more of those children when one is old and no longer able to get a living. This can be seen in European society in the pre-industrial ages, when, for example, manor court records show older peasants compounding with one or more children to give them the use of their land in return for a guarantee of a roof over one's head and a bowl of food by the fire (some manor court records of this type specify exactly what food is to be provided, and specify a seat by the fire).

It is entirely possible that fertility in the human animal responds to environmental conditions. I doubt that sexuality necessarily does, though, as there are ample examples of widespread homosexuality in pre-industrial societies in which population density was not a concern.

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Bella Dea wrote:

Questioner wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:

Oh Q, that's like saying you can't marry the woman of your dreams because your parents object.

It's saying nothing of the kind. In fact it in no way shape or form resembles that. I guess I'm missing something here. Either that or you're screen needs to be cleaned up a bit.

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They do have a choice. Being attracted to someone is sometimes unavoidable.
So is being attracted to your wife.

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Deciding to act on those attractions is, thus it is a choice.
So is making love to your wife. You are saying that gays can be gay inside as long as they chose not to act out their gayness.

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They choose to come out. It's not forced upon them anymore than a beer is forced upon a potential alcoholic.
No it isn't forced on them. It isn't forced on you to love your wife. But you do and it's acceptable. Why? Because society says so.

If your mom hated her, wouldn't you feel torn about your life?

I am saying it's like you loving your wife on the inside and not being able to act it out to her because someone else doesn't like the fact that you love her in a sexual way.

Am I wrong here?

You're not wrong, but your arguing against something that I'm not saying. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm not saying it's not arguing if it's acceptable or not. I'm just saying it's a choice. Yes, heterosexuals can choose to sleep with their spouses, or to even have spouses. This is also a choice.

I'm completely baffled as to why you're arguing what you're arguing, at least as it pertains to what i'm saying.

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homosexuality is not 'unnatural'

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