homosexuality is not 'unnatural'

John Creasy wrote:

Ah yes, a question directed at the almighty bella must be crying. And you convienently left out your arrogant, smartass remarks in response to my alleged "whining." And all this coming from a broad who thinks we should worship dicks???!!!

John, you might really want to calm down a bit. The above statement is a bit too harsh. Please direct your anger towards arguing your side of the debate, not slinging mud.

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I agree with Questiner. That was a bit much.

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okay, I see we're back from our timeout. I'm very calm.

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<GRIN> Some of the comments here actually make me laugh aloud.

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Oh come now prince (not an invite you bad boy)...do tell us what made you chuckle this lovely Friday....

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John Creasy wrote:

Ah yes, a question directed at the almighty bella must be crying. And you convienently left out your arrogant, smartass remarks in response to my alleged "whining." And all this coming from a broad who thinks we should worship dicks???!!!

Actually, I'd consider it stalling. Or grasping straws. My "arrogant, smartass" remarks at least had some substance to them instead of accusatory remarks and whining. (Yes, I said it again.)

As for this question, where is it? What is it? I've thoroughly answered every question directed at me. Please repost your question and if after actually attempting to read my explanatory posts, if you've somehow missed the answer, I will happily repost it.

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I was rather enjoying the debate Bella. Want to pick it back up?

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SO funny you said that because I was just writing up this!
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Now, back to real discussion.

Questioner, I am curious to know...do you think that the fact that the prostate brings more pleasure to the man when stimulated anally is a coincidence? I agree that it is there for a biological purpose. But could it be that it serves a secondary purpose as well?

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Bella Dea wrote:

SO funny you said that because I was just writing up this!
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Now, back to real discussion.

Questioner, I am curious to know...do you think that the fact that the prostate brings more pleasure to the man when stimulated anally is a coincidence? I agree that it is there for a biological purpose. But could it be that it serves a secondary purpose as well?

I don't think it's a coincidence in the way you might mean. There are several other organs in the body that can be 'stimulated' many of which have nothing to do with the sexual organs.

A stopped heart can be reactivated by a thump, or a jolt of electricity. Muscle tension can be easied by vigorous massaging. Neither of these things are indicitive of an ulterior motive, it's something that we've just discovered works.

The human body is set up so that we are capable of differentiating between something that hurts, ie: flame, a cut, etc, and something that doesn't, ie: a feather, a pat on the arm, grass, etc. Each individual then has the ability to define what hurts and what doesn't. Example: some people find cutting to be a pleasant sensation. Some prefer to be surrounded by extreme heat or extream cold. Others think the feel of someone touching them is revolting.

And some would find that having your prostate massaged from within could be both painful and unwanted.

To summarize, I seriously doubt that the prostate exists in it's present form for the use in which you are advocating. It is just something that some people have discovered can be used for other purposes. That doesn't necessitate that the use was nature-intended.

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Questioner wrote:

The human body is set up so that we are capable of differentiating between something that hurts, ie: flame, a cut, etc, and something that doesn't, ie: a feather, a pat on the arm, grass, etc. Each individual then has the ability to define what hurts and what doesn't. Example: some people find cutting to be a pleasant sensation. Some prefer to be surrounded by extreme heat or extream cold. Others think the feel of someone touching them is revolting.

Who do you know who likes to be cut, ie enjoys the sensation of being cut? A cutter does it despite the pain because it releases emotional tension. It doesn't bring physical pleasure in and of itself. It's brings emotional pleasure.

People who do not like to be touched are mentally abnormal, and I don't mean that in a nasty hateful way. Touching is a fundamental human need. If you can't bear to be touched, something very bad has happened to cause your revolt. "Normal" functioning people need to be touched. Maybe they can't stand to be touched by a stranger but we aren't talking about a stranger here. We are talking about intimate sexual partners.

Questioner wrote:

And some would find that having your prostate massaged from within could be both painful and unwanted.

Some people don't like to have their clitoris directly stimulated because it hurts but we both know that the clitoris is made specifically for sexual pleasure.

Our lips were designed for talking and yet they have some of the highest concentration of nerve endings in our bodies. Our fingers were made for gripping and yet they bring pleasure in a variety of ways. Our eyes are made for seeing but we can turn them on someone else, give them a look, and they stimulate us and arouse us.

My point is that most parts of the body have duel purpose; function and pleasure. We are one big erogenous zone. Why would it be assumed that something that might make one person uncomfortable but another excited be just happenstance? I would be more inclined to believe that it was created with duel purpose.

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I have read only this page, but let me jump in feet first.

The male prostate and female uterus have the same start and are derived from the same tissue. Many women enjoy having their cervix stimulated vaginally during foreplay because of the nerve endings located there. The prostate produces similar feelings in men. It serves a completely different purpose though.

As far as it being stimulated in a sexual manner, I do not see how that could have any bearing on homosexuality. I would hope that there is more to homosexuality than wanted something shoved up your rectum to stimulate ones prostate.

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Bella Dea wrote:

Our lips were designed for talking and yet they have some of the highest concentration of nerve endings in our bodies. Our fingers were made for gripping and yet they bring pleasure in a variety of ways. Our eyes are made for seeing but we can turn them on someone else, give them a look, and they stimulate us and arouse us.

Your lips have such a high concentration of nerve endings because it is one of a few entryways into the innards of your body. You have to know if there's boiling water touching them, or something equally as unpleasant. Your fingers are also sensitive because you need the extra sensory input to define what it is you're picking up. Is it hurting you, or is it ok to grip harder? And 'the look' you describe is simply a gesture that is common with any animal lifeform. Consider it a portion of the mating ritual.

Quote:

My point is that most parts of the body have duel purpose; function and pleasure. We are one big erogenous zone. Why would it be assumed that something that might make one person uncomfortable but another excited be just happenstance? I would be more inclined to believe that it was created with duel purpose.

We would assume that because of the diversity of that difference of effect. You can argue that some don't like their clitoris to be stimulated, but that doesn't detract from the fact that it's directly related to the reproductive system, thus having a purpose.

Let me try another track. The progress of nature appears to be run by natural selection. Survival of the fittest. 'Personal enjoyment' plays no part in physical survival. Sure, the lion may enjoy the hunt, but that enjoyment is directly tied to a fundamental purpose or function. It has to eat. The same goes for the human sex drive. There are enjoyments in intercourse between man and woman, but there is also a purpose or function. To procreate.

I don't believe nature cares one whit about our pleasure. Man has discovered ways to gain pleasure that nature didn't intend, but that doesn't make it pleasure by design.

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McGentrix wrote:

As far as it being stimulated in a sexual manner, I do not see how that could have any bearing on homosexuality. I would hope that there is more to homosexuality than wanted something shoved up your rectum to stimulate ones prostate.

A very good point McGentrix. The gyst of the debate to this point is one side claiming that homosexuality is a natural occurance, one that genetics could explain, versus one side claiming that homosexuality is not natural but a individualistic preference.

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Questioner wrote:

Let me try another track. The progress of nature appears to be run by natural selection. Survival of the fittest. 'Personal enjoyment' plays no part in physical survival.

That would eliminate many straight couples from existance then as well. It doesn't make them any less natural.

I think we could talk this in circles 100 times and neither of us would be any closer to an answer as to what the exact specific (if sole) function of body parts was meant to be (with exception of the obvious).

The part in all this I just don't get is why is it anyones business if it's natural or not? Why does it matter? Are they f*cking on your front lawn? If so, get the hose out. Parents don't want their children exposed to it? It's ok for a man and a woman to make out in public? It will ruin the sanctity of marriage? How? Religious beliefs can be enforced in home. Keep your god out of my life.

Natural or no, homosexuals are here to stay and they do nothing except exist. You think that's a crime? Well, I think that people who think that gays shouldn't be allowed the same rights as all straights and not be ridiculed and told they are "unnatural" shouldn't exist either. Boy, that's harsh isn't it?

<<steps off soap box>>

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Bella Dea wrote:

I think we could talk this in circles 100 times and neither of us would be any closer to an answer as to what the exact specific (if sole) function of body parts was meant to be (with exception of the obvious).

Drat, and here I thought I was making good progress.

Quote:

The part in all this I just don't get is why is it anyones business if it's natural or not? Why does it matter? Are they f*cking on your front lawn? If so, get the hose out. Parents don't want their children exposed to it? It's ok for a man and a woman to make out in public? It will ruin the sanctity of marriage? How? Religious beliefs can be enforced in home. Keep your god out of my life.

Natural or no, homosexuals are here to stay and they do nothing except exist. You think that's a crime? Well, I think that people who think that gays shouldn't be allowed the same rights as all straights and not be ridiculed and told they are "unnatural" shouldn't exist either. Boy, that's harsh isn't it?

<<steps off soap box>>

That's a bit off-kilter from what we were discussing. I don't think that arguing that homosexuality is not a genetic or other natural-based preference is the same thing as saying homosexuality is wrong. It's not. There's nothing hardcoded into anyone that makes them take up smoking, or drinking. We have addictive personalities, sure, but it's not hard-coded.

That doesn't make it wrong, just a life-choice that each person makes. I have no ulterior motives by arguing that it's not a natural tendency, nor do I have any social hangups with homosexuality itself.

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Questioner wrote:

Drat, and here I thought I was making good progress.

I am just too tired to keep going over the same points when we obviously are not in agreement that the body serves duel purposes.

Questioner wrote:

That's a bit off-kilter from what we were discussing. I don't think that arguing that homosexuality is not a genetic or other natural-based preference is the same thing as saying homosexuality is wrong. It's not. There's nothing hardcoded into anyone that makes them take up smoking, or drinking. We have addictive personalities, sure, but it's not hard-coded.

That doesn't make it wrong, just a life-choice that each person makes. I have no ulterior motives by arguing that it's not a natural tendency, nor do I have any social hangups with homosexuality itself.

Q, come on. Those who say it's unnatural, nine times outta ten, also think it's wrong.

And I don't think it's a choice. That's the point. It isn't a choice and even if it was, what does it matter if it's natural or not? That was my point. This whole argument is really silly, I think, and sad that we have to have it. Obviously, I think that gays are worth the fight or I wouldn't be here making an ass outta myself. :wink:

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Bella Dea wrote:

Q, come on. Those who say it's unnatural, nine times outta ten, also think it's wrong.

And I don't think it's a choice. That's the point. It isn't a choice and even if it was, what does it matter if it's natural or not? That was my point. This whole argument is really silly, I think, and sad that we have to have it. Obviously, I think that gays are worth the fight or I wouldn't be here making an ass outta myself. :wink:

Sorry, but I really beg to differ. (not trying to be difficult here, promise!)

There's a HUGE difference between it being unnatural and it being WRONG. The Wrongness stems almost solely from religion. If you don't subscribe to that particular religion, then how does it make it wrong?

Also, you're saying it's not choice but natural? So it's a pre-existing tendancy and choice plays no part in it? That just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If choice plays no part in it, then it's no longer a lifestyle but a condition. Which seems to me to be a worse label than unnatural.

It's perfectly acceptable to have a different lifestyle, and have that lifestyle by choice. That is both acceptable and respectable. To say that you have no choice but to live that lifestyle diminishes what it is meant to be somewhat. Does that make sense?

And you're far from making an ass of yourself. The reasons for your stand is commendable, just not agreeable.

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Bella Dea,

Lady, I hardly think you have made an a** out of yourself. I think you handle yourself quite well.

Bella, yes, I believe homosexuality is unnatural and a sin. But no, I don't believe I have the right to gay bash or treat anyone disrespectfully for what they do or do not do.

Now, there are those that would call me homophobic and a gay basher just because I do not believe in same sex marriage, etc. I do not accept that. If I did, I would have to accept then that anytime anyone disagrees on some moral issue (especially) it means one side is phobic, uninformed, etc., as many are called.

I believe I have the right to LOBBY to have the laws I believe in. But I have to LOBBY WITHIN THE LAW. (Caps for emphasis only). I don't carry signs saying derogatory statements nor do I bomb abortion clinics, and I do not lecture someone that is gay. If they ask how I feel about it, I tell them and I tell them why. I don't have to agree with them and they don't have to agree with me.

It all comes down to this IMO, each person is answerable to God. Some believe in God, some do not. So, perhaps some feel they are not answerable or accountable to anyone. I don't know.

As long as I feel a man's law conflicts with God's law, yes, I will LOBBY WITHIN MAN'S LAW, to change the law to God's law.

I have learned much from this discussion BTW. Embarrassed

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Questioner wrote:

Sorry, but I really beg to differ. (not trying to be difficult here, promise!)

Yeah right. :wink:

Questioner wrote:

There's a HUGE difference between it being unnatural and it being WRONG. The Wrongness stems almost solely from religion. If you don't subscribe to that particular religion, then how does it make it wrong?

And 9 time out of 10, those who think it's unnatural think it's wrong.

Questioner wrote:

Also, you're saying it's not choice but natural? So it's a pre-existing tendancy and choice plays no part in it? That just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If choice plays no part in it, then it's no longer a lifestyle but a condition. Which seems to me to be a worse label than unnatural.

Why a condition? By saying that you are the one making it a bad thing to be. Saying it's wrong, without actually saying the words "it's wrong". That's like saying being a drug addict is ok because you choose it. But if you are gay by birth, you must be evil.

Questioner wrote:

To say that you have no choice but to live that lifestyle diminishes what it is meant to be somewhat. Does that make sense?

They have no choice. You aren't gay (i don't think.... ) and obviously have not gone though "coming out" with someone to know that there isn't any glory in turning your back on your family and life to feel comfortable in your own skin. Now, some are lucky and their families and friends accept their "gayness" with open arms because for the first time since you've known them, they seem to be happy and confident. Others families completely turn their backs on them and want nothing to do with this "choice". I knew my friend was gay long before he came out. I just knew it. Are you saying that he unconsicously chose to give off gay vibes? Or are you saying he chose to have to live a secret life because he is a teacher and no one can no about his partner? That he can't even talk about his love for another human being because he might be fired for it? That he has to constantly defend himself against the world? Why in god's name would anyone choose that?

Questioner wrote:

The reasons for your stand is commendable, just not agreeable.

Well, at least we agree that we don't agree. Very Happy

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i haven't been following this thread either, but apparently no one has observed that chimpanzees are known to engage in homosexual behavior frequently. since chimps closely resemble humans genetically, perhaps there's a common genetic basis for homosexuality. i personally don't have an opinion about it, nor do i know of any research along these lines.

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homosexuality is not 'unnatural'

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