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Tue 18 Oct, 2005 08:35 pm
...LIFETIME AND/OR CAN AMERICANS' COMPREHEND THE CONCEPT?
No response...hmmm. Do I need to provide more details?
Hmm, I'd have thought you'd be pushing it, coming off such an immensely powerful base, but I know little about the demise of empires in detail.
Does it not usually happen fairly slowly?
I would have thought it very difficult for most citizens in an immensely powerful empire (or hegemony, which probably still more aptly describes the USA) to comprehend the concept, humans being fairly short sighted and easily boggled creatures, en masse.
There you go, Maple, that may start discussion!
This is my simplistic take on it.
Empires used to last hundreds of years (a gross generalisation but within my intellectual limits). Their decline was relatively slow (I'm thinking of Rome) but the precursors were there. No-one dared attack Rome when she was at the height of her power, they had a go when she was overstretched and in decline.
As time went on empires (now I'm thinking of the British Empire) didn't exist as long.
dlowan points out that the US is a hegemony rather than Empire which is a good point.
My guess - it's on the wane for the US but I believe it will take a bit longer before China supplants the US as the world superpower. Give it fifty years I'd say.
I just read Marshall Montgomery's book about the history of warfare and he repeats an interesting quote attributed to the Oracle of Delphi.
When asked, rather arrogantly, by an envoy from Sparta, after they had won the Pelopponesian War, if anything could bring down Sparta now, the Oracle answered: Yes, luxury.
I am now, in my mind's eye, seeing images of extralarge condos, SUVs, Big Macs, huge softdrinks, liter buckets of icecream...
Aaah, helpful comments...
HEGEMONY...helpful concept....from enclopedia: "since the end of the Cold War, analysts have used the term "hegemony" to describe the United States' role as the sole superpower (the hyperpower) in the modern world. However, some scholars of international relations (such as John Mearsheimer) argue that the United States does not have global hegemony, since it lacks the resources to impose dominance over the entire globe."
goodfielder...for one who has lived through our assention in the mid 20th century, I sense that we are in that decline. I love the quote provided by Paaskynen. It captures much of my concerns.
G'Morning, Mapleleaf. Good to see you.
My short answer is yes. I think we are witnessing the decline and fall of our nation. Can citizens imagine the US as a second class country? Probably not yet. Most aren't likely familiar with our debt being held by other countries to the extent that it is, or that a simple thing like changing the currency used for oil from dollars to euro's would have a major impact.
dlowan wrote:
I would have thought it very difficult for most citizens in an immensely powerful empire (or hegemony, which probably still more aptly describes the USA)
Actually, I believe oligarchy would be a better word
Second class nation. How would you define a second class nation?
The US came to the fore {first class nation} after WW2 primarily because the rest of the world was devastated whilewe remained relatively untouched.
That situations no longer exists and many of the nations have or are on the way to catching up, both technically, educationally and financially while we have become decadent.
Decadence is what destroyed many empires in the past and no doubt will destroy our short lived one.
gustavratzenhofer wrote:dlowan wrote:
I would have thought it very difficult for most citizens in an immensely powerful empire (or hegemony, which probably still more aptly describes the USA)
Actually, I believe oligarchy would be a better word
Hmmm...oligarchy kinda describes your government, I think.
I don't know as a country can be an oligarchy!
"That situations no longer exists and many of the nations have or are on the way to catching up, both technically, educationally and financially while we have become decadent.
Decadence is what destroyed many empires in the past and no doubt will destroy our short lived one."
Quote:
"In modern use, decadence is often defined as a decline in or loss of excellence, obstructing the pursuit of ideals. It is typified by the elevation of cleverness, education, and intellectual pretension over experience, and is often considered materialistic." -From Wikipedia
Materialistic....
au1929, does this speak to your comment?
Mapleleaf
How would see decadence as related to the fall of empires? Getting fat and lazy from to much of a good thing.
At one point in the Roman Empire, when the call came to defend the city/country, a man would leave his family, bring his own food and equipment and take his position with the Army. There was discipline. Rank was earned and appreciated. The training was intense and the results were highly respected by foes.
As the years passed, the defeated states sent food and such to Rome. The Romans grew accustomed to being provided such goods. It was not necessary to work to provide such items for themselves. At one point, wealthly patriots bought their rank. Respect and rank dissipated. Discipline and training suffered. The Army grew soft. Rome's enemies took advantage of this weakness. At some point in time, the Eastern Empire fell and the Eastern Empire continued for another 1000 years. CHECK THOSE YEARS...WAS IT A THOUSAND.
Mapleleaf
And so it was with the fall of each succeeding empire. Although the time frame became shorter and shorter. It would appear that the US is unfortunately galloping down the same path.
It is not stylish to write such things...you are not a patriot...You are against America.
My wife and I often wonder, "What if we brought less, conserved more, kept our car 8-10 years, recycled left over food into other meals"...that too is not American. We are geared to consumption...throw away the left over food...buy a young child's toys faster than he can get use to the one's he has...change styles each year or two... The economy must continue to grow...to grow we must spend.
I told my wife, watching television is comparable to walking through an old time county fair...barkers everywhere...sex tonic...hair tonic...amazing food cutters... What is the truth...you don't find truth in commercials...the ideal is to lead you on...even with government surveillance, it is amazing what is claimed in commercials.
I believe that the US would be reduced to second class or conceivably third class nation status very, very quickly, if terrorists succeeded in a nuclear 9/11 in two or three of our cities. I think just one would do tremendous damage, but maybe not make us a lesser nation.
Anyone who thinks that the only damage from the obliteration of a city would be what's immediately obvious is kidding himself. There would be lots of secondary and tertiary effects. For instance, try to get a doctor when they're being siphoned into the affected area. Probably a successfull biological terrorist attack or two could do it too.
Brandon
We are under an attack by WMD's at the present time. The weapons are not nuclear but economic. It is called globalization. We cannot sustain an economy over the long run being the worlds major debtor nation and depending on consumerism to sustain us.
The nation, no more than the individual, could long maintain economic viability under those circumstances
au1929 wrote:Brandon
We are under an attack by WMD's at the present time. The weapons are not nuclear but economic. It is called globalization. We cannot sustain an economy over the long run being the worlds major debtor nation and depending on consumerism to sustain us.
The nation, no more than the individual, could long maintain economic viability under those circumstances
Your casual use of the term WMD shows only ignorance. A real WMD could, for example, kill a half million people and wound millions in a few minutes. The two things are not comparable.
Brandon
I would try to explain my use of WMD but you I am sure you wou not understand the analogy.
I think you should stick to you theme of Saddam blowing up US cities if not stopped.
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