The limits of US power - Illusion in Iraq

Brandon9000 wrote:

old europe wrote:

In my opinion, if one's country's government decided to invade another country, and the decision to invade was "incorrect", it is the duty of the citizens to critizise their government. It is their duty to ignore any success an unlawful invasion might render. It is their duty to ignore any collaborators in the invaded country.

I don't understand how anybody could reach any other conclusion.

I didn't. I clearly must explain this as to a small child.

Nice. Well, what would Brandon have answered here?

Brandon9000 wrote:

I note that this ad hominem doesn't address any of the points of my argument.

So, let's move on.

Brandon9000 wrote:

I said that people who post nothing but criticisms of America, trumpet any conceivable military failure, including imaginary ones, with glee, and never mention any of the positive things which certainly must be occurring, are disloyal. I did not say that anyone who criticizes the war is disloyal. This is just a strawman to make it possible to argue with me.

You think way too much of yourself. It's neither a strawman I put up nor something you had said. You said

Brandon9000 wrote:

supposing [...] that the decision to invade was incorrect, that does not make the Americans any less disloyal [...]

You said, even if the war was illegal, any American who would criticize it would be disloyal. I specifically answered that one sentence. That's why I quoted it. If you wanted to say something different, you should maybe have posted it. But the way it is, I can only look at what you actually posted.

If you're incapable of wording your opinions the way you wanted to, it's not my fault, Brandon.

Brandon9000 wrote:

However, during time of war, even a war that one doesn't agree with, a loyal citizen may criticize it, but will not criticize it in such a way as to make military defeat substantially more likely.

We were not talking merely about "a war that one doesn't agree with". What we were talking about was that the "decision to invade was incorrect". A wrong decision. An illegal war. Well, you were talking about that.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question: Were Germans who criticized the invasion of Poland in 1939 disloyal?

Who is being disloyal to whom?

OK I'm a Brit so I'm talking in general terms not specifically American.

If a democratically elected government abuses its position and lies to its own people about the necessity for war...

If it tells the people they are in danger from the enemy's terrible weapons...

which it uses as justification for starting war, when it knows those weapons pose no danger

when it exploits the patriotism of young men and women and sends them off to give their lives for the profits of large corporations

when those same men and women are killed and injured and not properly cared for on their return home, but the adverts for more recruits pump out patriotic propaganda.

When journalists try and report the truth and get killed or their good name smeared, every effort being made to disguise the true nature of what is going on...

Who is being disloyal to who?

Brandon9000 wrote:

I didn't. I clearly must explain this as to a small child. I said that people who post nothing but criticisms of America, trumpet any conceivable military failure, including imaginary ones, with glee, and never mention any of the positive things which certainly must be occurring, are disloyal. I did not say that anyone who criticizes the war is disloyal. This is just a strawman to make it possible to argue with me.

However, during time of war, even a war that one doesn't agree with, a loyal citizen may criticize it, but will not criticize it in such a way as to make military defeat substantially more likely.

I can't find any articles with positive things occurring in iraq, why dont you post some Brandon.

DD wrote:

Aw... don't get all up in Tico's face. I'd meet him for a beer, even if he is a flippin' Republican.

I've never met tico, but I'd have a beer with him. If I agreed with everything he posts on a2k, it'll just be a miracle - cause even all my siblings are republicans. LOL

freedom4free wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

I didn't. I clearly must explain this as to a small child. I said that people who post nothing but criticisms of America, trumpet any conceivable military failure, including imaginary ones, with glee, and never mention any of the positive things which certainly must be occurring, are disloyal. I did not say that anyone who criticizes the war is disloyal. This is just a strawman to make it possible to argue with me.

However, during time of war, even a war that one doesn't agree with, a loyal citizen may criticize it, but will not criticize it in such a way as to make military defeat substantially more likely.

I can't find any articles with positive things occurring in iraq, why dont you post some Brandon.

Looking pretty hard, are you?

Plaque Honoring Our Soldiers at Iraqi School

Too bad those 100,000 innocent Iraqis aren't around to thank the US forces.