god loves man, loves man not god.

Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite,

Your questions always make me think, which is a good thing. I wish I could explain to you why it seems God was a real stickler for the rules and it seems He softened. I cannot put so many things into words sometimes. I just know that yes, those things did happen in the OT and yes, they must sound so barbaric to those that don't believe the whole story.

Thank you Momma Angel. Causing one another to think in these discussions is what I think it is all about.

Momma Angel wrote:

There are so many things I still have questions about. But, I live my life the best I can and I stick to my faith because it does sustain me. It is what makes me a whole person.

IMO you are selling yourself short there. I think that what sustains you is helping others, not your faith. I suspect that if you had never been exposed to Christianity you would still be an activist, helping others. Just my opinion.

Momma Angel wrote:

And, if as you say, He was a stickler and now just requires you to believe, why would anyone have a problem with that? So, I guess there are questions on both side of the coin.

I think that what bothers me the most is the way that the most barbaric acts of the OT are so easily discounted as justified only because God did it and God make the rules. I think that when people allow their minds to be trained to accept that sort of rationalization, then it is not a great leap to the type of rationalization that flies airplanes into buildings or allows theocracies to take over governments.

Momma Angel wrote:

I really enjoy chatting with you.

Thank you, and I enjoy chatting with you also.

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Mesquite,

I appreciate your comments and I hope that even if I wasn't Christian I would still help others.

I understand about the flying the airplanes into buildings statement. But, for me, that would never be a consideration or even a thought on my worst day. Because that is not what God is to me. Yes, that was part of the history. But, it's not the full character. So, I guess we are getting closer to just agreeing to disagree?

I enjoy chatting with you because even though you don't believe as I do, you don't laugh at me or demean me for it. It makes for very good conversation in my opinion.

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Mesquite wrote:

Quote:

I think that what bothers me the most is the way that the most barbaric acts of the OT are so easily discounted as justified only because God did it and God make the rules. I think that when people allow their minds to be trained to accept that sort of rationalization, then it is not a great leap to the type of rationalization that flies airplanes into buildings or allows theocracies to take over governments.

I have been saving this thought for another thread...as part of a "finishing off" I have to do with someone who seems to think he is the end-all of posters.

This thought, Mesquite, is one of the most fundamental reasons why those of us who see religion the way we do can NEVER let up.

I can only hope you are of the same mind. You are a very effective advocate for this side of the issue.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Mesquite wrote:

Quote:
I think that what bothers me the most is the way that the most barbaric acts of the OT are so easily discounted as justified only because God did it and God make the rules. I think that when people allow their minds to be trained to accept that sort of rationalization, then it is not a great leap to the type of rationalization that flies airplanes into buildings or allows theocracies to take over governments.

I have been saving this thought for another thread...as part of a "finishing off" I have to do with someone who seems to think he is the end-all of posters.

This thought, Mesquite, is one of the most fundamental reasons why those of us who see religion the way we do can NEVER let up.

I can only hope you are of the same mind. You are a very effective advocate for this side of the issue.

Frank,

I don't understand your need to "finish off"? I doubt that it is going to be like a final thought.

When you say statements like ....the way we do can NEVER let up...makes me a bit leery. If you want religious freedom why do you want to "wipe Christianity off the face of the earth (as you have stated before)?

It's just all a matter of some believing one way and some believing another. It seems to have become a crusade with you and I just do not understand.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

I don't understand your need to "finish off"? I doubt that it is going to be like a final thought.

When you say statements like ....the way we do can NEVER let up...makes me a bit leery. If you want religious freedom why do you want to "wipe Christianity off the face of the earth (as you have stated before)?

It's just all a matter of some believing one way and some believing another. It seems to have become a crusade with you and I just do not understand.

If I may, and please ignore me if I'm out of line here by jumping in and answering a question not directed at me.

MA, from what i've gathered, Frank (and frank, please do correct me if I misrepresent what you're saying) is rather leery of the type of religious fanaticism that has been at the root of some of the more recent terrorist attacks. The kind of close-minded, "nothing you can say can change the way I think" type of mentality is what can easilly lead to spawning a group of people running into a crowded market place with bombs strapped to their bodies.

In my opinion, having faith and believing what you will is everyone's right, and should be respected. However, when those beliefs turn fanatic and in some cases hostile they should be sifted out and negated as quickly as possible.

Frank, sorry for answering for you, let me know if I got any of that wrong.

And MA, i'm not saying that any of the above necessarily applies to you.

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Questioner wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

I don't understand your need to "finish off"? I doubt that it is going to be like a final thought.

When you say statements like ....the way we do can NEVER let up...makes me a bit leery. If you want religious freedom why do you want to "wipe Christianity off the face of the earth (as you have stated before)?

It's just all a matter of some believing one way and some believing another. It seems to have become a crusade with you and I just do not understand.

If I may, and please ignore me if I'm out of line here by jumping in and answering a question not directed at me.

MA, from what i've gathered, Frank (and frank, please do correct me if I misrepresent what you're saying) is rather leery of the type of religious fanaticism that has been at the root of some of the more recent terrorist attacks. The kind of close-minded, "nothing you can say can change the way I think" type of mentality is what can easilly lead to spawning a group of people running into a crowded market place with bombs strapped to their bodies.

In my opinion, having faith and believing what you will is everyone's right, and should be respected. However, when those beliefs turn fanatic and in some cases hostile they should be sifted out and negated as quickly as possible.

Frank, sorry for answering for you, let me know if I got any of that wrong.

And MA, i'm not saying that any of the above necessarily applies to you.

Questioner,

First, I understand you didn't mean that necessarily applied to me. Your posts are very clear and non-accusatory.

If, this is the reason that Frank (or any other that feels as he does) feels they must do this, I can understand that. I am not for that type of religious practices whatsoever.

I just feel that (at least in these forums) Christians have been stereotyped and no matter what we saw or how we present ourselves (in words and behavior) we are still lumped into that stereotype.

We have continually tried to explain what we believe and what our concept of God is. But, this is ignored. We are continually bombarded with verses from the OT that show just part of the story.

I (because I can't speak for everyone) am not trying to force anything on anyone. I am gaining understanding of both sides of the issue from these discussions (well, most of the time ~ once the harsh words start flying I often miss the points trying to be made.)

I am all for compromise and getting along.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I don't understand your need to "finish off"? I doubt that it is going to be like a final thought.

I doubt it also...in fact, I'd even bet on it. But that was not what I had in mind when I wrote "finish off." It was a term used in that thead...and I have stuck with it. I should have adjusted it for this thread.

Quote:

When you say statements like ....the way we do can NEVER let up...makes me a bit leery. If you want religious freedom why do you want to "wipe Christianity off the face of the earth (as you have stated before)?

I want religious freedom??????????????????????????????????????

I want religion to be a thing of the past, MA....something future students will see referred to in books as a part of Earth's early history.

Quote:

It's just all a matter of some believing one way and some believing another.

Not always. Some people do not do that "believing" thing at all.

Quote:

It seems to have become a crusade with you and I just do not understand.

Yes, MA...I agree. You don't.

No disrespect intended, but you really should pay better attention. I have offered detailed explanations of my motives on several occasions in threads in which you were a participant...and in fact, in posts directed to specifically to you.

By now...you should understand.

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By the way...so there is no misunderstanding:

The day I see religious people being as zealous about safeguarding freedom FROM religion as they claim to be zealous about freedom of religion...

...I would personally be willing to make accomodation with them.

But I am not going to hold my breath.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

By the way...so there is no misunderstanding:

The day I see religious people being as zealous about safeguarding freedom FROM religion as they claim to be zealous about freedom of religion...

...I would personally be willing to make accomodation with them.

But I am not going to hold my breath.

Frank,

If 'religious people' as you call them were as zealous about safeguarding (your word) FROM religion, wouldn't that make us absolute hypocrites?

So, you don't want religious freedom? You want freedom from religion in total? I may not understand a lot of things, but I understand that as you wanting to take away one of my rights. How can you justify doing that? You rail against those that believe lobbying against abortion takes away a woman's right to choose and yet you want to take away my right to religion?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
By the way...so there is no misunderstanding:

The day I see religious people being as zealous about safeguarding freedom FROM religion as they claim to be zealous about freedom of religion...

...I would personally be willing to make accomodation with them.

But I am not going to hold my breath.

Frank,

If 'religious people' as you call them were as zealous about safeguarding (your word) FROM religion, wouldn't that make us absolute hypocrites?

So, you don't want religious freedom? You want freedom from religion in total? I may not understand a lot of things, but I understand that as you wanting to take away one of my rights.

Nope.

The only way this works is if you (and all the other religious folk) to finally realize that religion is nothing more than superstion...and for you to VOLUNTARILY give up the right to guess there is a God...to guess what the God is like...to guess what offends or pleases the God...and to guess what the God expects of humans.

Makes no real sense for you to do that in any case...since you are pulling these essentially blind guesses out of thin air. So you would not be VOLUNTARILY giving up all that much.

That's all I am hoping for...and, incidentially, efforting toward.

Quote:

How can you justify doing that?

See above.

Quote:

You rail against those that believe lobbying against abortion takes away a woman's right to choose and yet you want to take away my right to religion?

See above.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
By the way...so there is no misunderstanding:

The day I see religious people being as zealous about safeguarding freedom FROM religion as they claim to be zealous about freedom of religion...

...I would personally be willing to make accomodation with them.

But I am not going to hold my breath.

Frank,

If 'religious people' as you call them were as zealous about safeguarding (your word) FROM religion, wouldn't that make us absolute hypocrites?

So, you don't want religious freedom? You want freedom from religion in total? I may not understand a lot of things, but I understand that as you wanting to take away one of my rights.

Nope.

The only way this works is if you (and all the other religious folk) to finally realize that religion is nothing more than superstion...and for you to VOLUNTARILY give up the right to guess there is a God...to guess what the God is like...to guess what offends or pleases the God...and to guess what the God expects of humans.

Makes no real sense for you to do that in any case...since you are pulling these essentially blind guesses out of thin air. So you would not be VOLUNTARILY giving up all that much.

That's all I am hoping for...and, incidentially, efforting toward.

Quote:
How can you justify doing that?

See above.

Quote:
You rail against those that believe lobbying against abortion takes away a woman's right to choose and yet you want to take away my right to religion?

See above.

Frank,

Are you serious? You want me to voluntarily give up my rights? And I should voluntarily give up my rights, why?

For someone who claims that they do not "know" about if there even is a God or not, you are pretty clear on what you do know. You seem to know you don't want there to be one for you or for anyone else. Why is that?

So what if we believe in God? What is that to you? What effect does my believing in God have on you personally?

You think that your answer justifies you wanting to take away my rights (oh, but by my doing it voluntarily that is). So, if I give it up voluntarily that will take responsibility away from you?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

Are you serious?

I'm serious as a heart attack!

Quote:

You want me to voluntarily give up my rights?

Certainly not all of them...nor did I suggest that. However, the right to make wild guesses about the nature of REALITY?

Yes. I do want you to give them up voluntarily.

Quote:

And I should voluntarily give up my rights, why?

In the particular case of guessing about the nature of REALITY...because I am of the opinion that you are a humanitarian...and doing so would be a big plus for humanity.

Quote:

For someone who claims that they do not "know" about if there even is a God or not, you are pretty clear on what you do know.

Yes I am.

Quote:

You seem to know you don't want there to be one for you or for anyone else. Why is that?

I did not say that at all...so I cannot answer that question.

Quote:

So what if we believe in God? What is that to you? What effect does my believing in God have on you personally?

No impact at all.

However, the collective "believing in gods" going on does. In this country particularly...it hampers my rights to be free OF religion....with all its silly guessing.

Quote:

You think that your answer justifies you wanting to take away my rights ...

I do not want to take your rights away. We've already discussed this.

Quote:

(oh, but by my doing it voluntarily that is). So, if I give it up voluntarily that will take responsibility away from you?

No..it would be an evolutionary step forward for you...and a move that would be to the direct advantage of humanity.

MA...you asked some questions and I answered them. As far as I am concerned...my answers were direct and logical. In any case, they reflected my opinion.

Read them again...and truly try to understand what I am saying...instead of jumping to illogical conclusions about what I said.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Frank,

Are you serious?

I'm serious as a heart attack!

Quote:
You want me to voluntarily give up my rights?

Certainly not all of them...nor did I suggest that. However, the right to make wild guesses about the nature of REALITY?

Yes. I do want you to give them up voluntarily.

Quote:
And I should voluntarily give up my rights, why?

In the particular case of guessing about the nature of REALITY...because I am of the opinion that you are a humanitarian...and doing so would be a big plus for humanity.

Quote:
For someone who claims that they do not "know" about if there even is a God or not, you are pretty clear on what you do know.

Yes I am.

Quote:
You seem to know you don't want there to be one for you or for anyone else. Why is that?

I did not say that at all...so I cannot answer that question.

Quote:
So what if we believe in God? What is that to you? What effect does my believing in God have on you personally?

No impact at all.

However, the collective "believing in gods" going on does. In this country particularly...it hampers my rights to be free OF religion....with all its silly guessing.

Quote:
You think that your answer justifies you wanting to take away my rights ...

I do not want to take your rights away. We've already discussed this.

Quote:
(oh, but by my doing it voluntarily that is). So, if I give it up voluntarily that will take responsibility away from you?

No..it would be an evolutionary step forward for you...and a move that would be to the direct advantage of humanity.

MA...you asked some questions and I answered them. As far as I am concerned...my answers were direct and logical. In any case, they reflected my opinion.

Read them again...and truly try to understand what I am saying...instead of jumping to illogical conclusions about what I said.

Frank,

I am not trying to jump to any conclusions. I am just going from what you are saying here.

If you want to be free from religion then Frank, don't practice it, don't talk about it, don't post in the spirituality and religion forums. If you want to be free from religion do not put yourself in its path. And, if you really want freedom from religion it might be a good idea to take all those Bibles out of your house. It seems you choose to stay in religion's path.

If someone tries to talk to you about it tell them you don't want to hear it and walk away.

You can put it anyway you want Frank, it all comes down to you wanting my right to freedom of religion gone, whether done forcefully or voluntarily.

The way you want it would mean that you get your rights and those of us that want to practice religion won't have ours. And you think this is ok?

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Momma Angel wrote:

I am not trying to jump to any conclusions. I am just going from what you are saying here.

If you want to be free from religion then Frank, don't practice it, don't talk about it, don't post in the spirituality and religion forums. If you want to be free from religion do not put yourself in its path. And, if you really want freedom from religion it might be a good idea to take all those Bibles out of your house. It seems you choose to stay in religion's path.

I intend to fight religious people wherever and whenever I can.

Your advice for me to get out of the religion forum is rejected...as well is should be.

Quote:

If someone tries to talk to you about it tell them you don't want to hear it and walk away.

No way!

I will instead offer them as much rope as they are willing to take.

Quote:

You can put it anyway you want Frank, it all comes down to you wanting my right to freedom of religion gone, whether done forcefully or voluntarily.

I said want it done voluntarily...and I want it done voluntarily. If you want to guess I am lying...you are free to do so.

I do want some non-voluntary steps taken...but I want those steps taken within existing laws.

Quote:

The way you want it would mean that you get your rights and those of us that want to practice religion won't have ours.

My point is to wake you folks up so that you will not be afraid...and the superstition will no longer be needed.

Quote:

And you think this is ok?

No. I think it is imperative!

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By the way, MA...why are you fighting me on this?

You are the one always arguing how we have to respect each other's "beliefs." When I mention that to be an absurd notion...you go out of your way to insist that we should do it...and that I am wrong in saying it is absurd.

Now here...I am sharing of what you would refer to as "beliefs"...

...and you are acting as though they are disgusting. You are almost contemptuous of them.

How does that compute?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

By the way, MA...why are you fighting me on this?

You are the one always arguing how we have to respect each other's "beliefs." When I mention that to be an absurd notion...you go out of your way to insist that we should do it...and that I am wrong in saying it is absurd.

Now here...I am sharing of what you would refer to as "beliefs"...

...and you are acting as though they are disgusting. You are almost contemptuous of them.

How does that compute?

I am not contemptuous of what you are sharing as your "beliefs". Quite the contrary. And disgusting? No. You haven't said anything disgusting and the fact that you think religion should be done away with altogether is not something I would label as disgusting. I just don't agree with it. If you believe what you believe then it is obviously important to you. I don't consider it absurd, disgusting, etc. It's just what it is. It's your beliefs, not mine.

I am, however, rather surprised that you do not seem to understand that you are essentially equating that it IS NOT okay try to deny a woman the right to abortion, though it is within my legal and civil rights to do so, and it IS okay for you to try to deny my right to practice my religion by doing away with religion.

I am sorry, Frank. This just seems very hypocritical to me.

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Hello, Mind if I interject? Granted I am not a debate queen, but I know, like MA, what I believe.

I respect, Frank, that you are an agnostic. Isn't what you want not freedom OF religion, but freedom FROM religion?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
By the way, MA...why are you fighting me on this?

You are the one always arguing how we have to respect each other's "beliefs." When I mention that to be an absurd notion...you go out of your way to insist that we should do it...and that I am wrong in saying it is absurd.

Now here...I am sharing of what you would refer to as "beliefs"...

...and you are acting as though they are disgusting. You are almost contemptuous of them.

How does that compute?

I am not contemptuous of what you are sharing as your "beliefs".

I'm going to agree with several things you said in this post...but I am going to correct this sentence immediately.

I did not share anything as "my beliefs."

I distinctly noted they were "what you would refer to as beliefs."

BIG difference. BIG DIFFERNCE!

As for me...I consider them "my take on things" or guesses or estimates.

Quote:

Quite the contrary. And disgusting? No. You haven't said anything disgusting and the fact that you think religion should be done away with altogether is not something I would label as disgusting. I just don't agree with it. If you believe what you believe then it is obviously important to you. I don't consider it absurd, disgusting, etc. It's just what it is. It's your beliefs, not mine.

Except for all the "beliefs" and "believing" you ascribe to me...I agree with this.

Quote:

I am, however, rather surprised that you do not seem to understand that you are essentially equating that it IS NOT okay try to deny a woman the right to abortion, though it is within my legal and civil rights to do so, and it IS okay for you to try to deny my right to practice my religion by doing away with religion.

I have never said it IS NOT okay for you to try to deny a woman the right to an abortion. I would, in fact, fight to protect your right to do so. I have said on many occasions that I will fight you to the death to see that ykou do not win that battle.

And in fact...(I am now saying this for the third time)...I would prefer that you voluntarily give up the right to guess about REALITY in the superstitious way religious folks do. VOLUNTARILY GIVE IT UP.

I am arguing for your right to choose!

Quote:

I am sorry, Frank. This just seems very hypocritical to me.

Well...as I have explained...it is not.

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devriesj wrote:

Hello, Mind if I interject? Granted I am not a debate queen, but I know, like MA, what I believe.

I respect, Frank, that you are an agnostic. Isn't what you want not freedom OF religion, but freedom FROM religion?

Absolutely.

I have stated that in those exact words dozens of times during the last week.

I want freedom FROM religion.

Religion...or any kind of superstition...should not enter the public arena.

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Frank,

Sorry about the misunderstanding about the word beliefs. I get it. Your take on things.

Frank, I already have the right to choose. You have the right to choose. If you try to rid the world of religion you are trying to take away my right to choose to have it.

Ok, I am getting confused now. First you say you want to rid religion from the world. Now the public arena? Could you please tell me exactly what you want religion removed from?

0 Replies

god loves man, loves man not god.

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