god loves man, loves man not god.

Frank, you wrote:

"Whether or not it is a lost cause is problematic. I have had an inordinate amount of success in getting others to adopt the agnostic position. "

My question is this. If someone is happy, content, and living a good life in their beliefs, why do you feel it is okay for you to try to get them to change their views but it does not appear (to me) that it is okay for believers to try to do the same?

MA said "Christ, as the Son of God, had authority over everyone on earth. Had He chosen not to be crucified, He could have stopped it at any time."

I am of the opinion that this is a guess MA is making...based in large part on another guess she is making....that the Bible speaks the truth.

So I am really not out of line.

And I don't understand why you would take pleasure in being arrogant?

Quote:

And I don't understand why you would take pleasure in being arrogant?

Because the arrogance of humbleness is the most repelling arrogances of all. It is to acknowledge that you do not know, then look down on everyone who claims they do. I am not accusing anyone here. I just prefer to be honest.

What I don't understand is why Christians feel the need to soak their spiritual quest in thousands of years of bloodshed, crusades, powerstruggle and misinterpeted symbols. Why make millennia of enemies and crimes your own?

I am pressed for time right now, so a more elaborate response will have to come later.

Because the arrogance of humbleness is the most repelling arrogances of all. It is to acknowledge that you do not know, then look down on everyone who claims they do. I am not accusing anyone here. I just prefer to be honest.

What I don't understand is why Christians feel the need to soak their spiritual quest in thousands of years of bloodshed, crusades, powerstruggle and misinterpeted symbols. Why make millennia of enemies and crimes your own?

I am pressed for time right now, so a more elaborate response will have to come later.

Cyracuz, I am sorry you believe John 3:16 is a myth. Again, you are asking that God or Christ would prove who He is.

What you know is that nothing that is possible to do is in defiance with God's will? God's verdict on all humans is equal? To God, a human and amoeba are equally puny or equally great? It sounds pretty much to me that you are saying you KNOW the mind of God. And, you also seem to be saying that it is okay to do anything? Does this mean there is no sin in your eyes?

And, finally Cyracuz, if you make the statement ......which is the case with most religious people, are you not stating then that you know more of the mind of God than they do because you have decided they are wrong?

You may feel Jesus isn't there anymore but He is.

The wisdom of Christ is timeless. But, let me ask you something. If, you find His teachings so full of wisdom, why then do you choose to disregard so much of it (according to what is written in the Bible?). I have been accused of disregarding or discarding a lot of the Bible. What makes us different in this respect then?

I am just sceptical as to how literally this is understood after so many years of manipulation by man. I believe in christ, that he was a man, and spiritual leader. What draws me is his humanity, not his divinity. I don't care about that stuff.

Yes, it is ok to do anything as far as god is concerned, allthough you must remember than everything costs something. I definetly do not believe that there is a supreme judge waiting to put me in hell or heaven. We humans have a way of devising our own undoing, entirely. This happens through causality, and this "force" is active within us as well as in our environment. We're even a product of it.

And sin? If there were no cops or judges, would it be a crime to steal from my neigbor, or to kill him?

Not more. Less, in that I am deprived of the dogmatic notion of god. No matter how we twist it about, the entire christian belief system of the modern world is an echo of an outdated political model designed to rein in scared people.

No, he is dead. But his words linger, as do the tones of beethoven, both a source of immense comfort and inspiration.

Frankly I find the idea that he died for my sins a bit offensive. Will I not get to die for them? My guess is yes, very much. If so, then what's the point of jesus dying for them? It didn't save me anything.

I do not disregard wisdom, just the words it comes in. And I do disregard any second or third hand interpetation. You can go to the church to find spiritualism, but there are so many advertisers there that it's hard to find the actual product.

But what makes us different? Don't know. A heck of a lot less than makes us similar I'll bet.

Cyracuz Wrote:

Quote:

I am just sceptical as to how literally this is understood after so many years of manipulation by man. I believe in christ, that he was a man, and spiritual leader. What draws me is his humanity, not his divinity. I don't care about that stuff.

I don't know much plainer that particular scripture can be. The Bible says He was and is the Son of God. Why do you stop at his humanity? I am very curious about that.

The Bible makes that pretty clear.

He's dead? You know this how?

Well, if it were okay to do anything as far god is concerned then why would there be a cost?

You find the fact that He died for your sins a bit offensive? Do you find it offensive American soldiers are dying to keep you free?

You disregard the words it comes in. Isn't that like shooting the messenger?

Similar? Different? Yes, we all are in so many ways. But, we have free will to choose.

youse are missing the point.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus was pure. He had never sinned. When we sin, we become painfull to God like fire is to us. We need something to pay for what we had done and Jesus did that.

"On the cross, Jesus supposedly asked: Why hast thou forsaken me?

What do you suppose that was about?"

Jesus said, "why have you forsaken me" because the sin had blinded him. In his sinnfullnes, God had appeared to forsaken him.

"celebrate his demise like a conquering victor."

It isn't the demise of Jesus that we celebrate, its the demise of Death and Satan and sin. We can go to heaven and have a good life . WE can be with God.

"The World presumably means mankind. How does making a human sacrifice demostrate love of mankind? It would only be outstandingly impressive if Jesus had firmly established himself as the Son of God."

Jesus has established himself as the Son of God. In the Lords house. He died, went to hell, beat death and went up into heaven to sit at the right hand side of his Father, God. Jesus did so much more than what we can see. Everything that Jesus did be being sacrificed and riseing up was to save us from something that will happen when we die. Since that will only happen once and you wont be able to write about it, you can't know what it is like, what a significance it is that Jesus died until you get there. That is why it is called faith.

Jesus was pure. He had never sinned. When we sin, we become painfull to God like fire is to us. We need something to pay for what we had done and Jesus did that.

"The World presumably means mankind. How does making a human sacrifice demostrate love of mankind? It would only be outstandingly impressive if Jesus had firmly established himself as the Son of God."

yes