Steve (as 41oo) wrote:Well I'm not trying to play tricks or anything MA
It started with your tagline from John 3.16.
That is one sentence, and all i am trying to do is look at it logically.
Personally I dont think Jesus the man was anything like the image of Jesus we are given from childhood. That is not to say all men perhaps have a spark of the divine in them, but that is irrelevant to my analysis.
First we must accept the existence of God...For the purposes of this argument thats a given.
Then God "So loved the world". Well ok. Again for the sake of argument. (There is a mighty big assumption here. Many people have come to quite different conclusions about the character of God)
He gave his only begotten son etc.
So at the root of it is that God gave to man the thing that is most precious to Him, i.e. the life of his own Son, so that man can be saved (if he believes).
Any normal person would have to be impressed with an idea that was so important that someone (in this case God) was willing to give the life of his own child for it.
But perhaps less so if the "son" was no relation. Or if the sacrifice was a goat, or just some money in a tin.
The affect is lost if the Father Son relation is missing. And yet apparantly nowhere do we have Jesus claiming to be divine.
(Thats not to say you cant believe in him as divine, thats religion, I'm just trying to look at the actual words and trying to draw some conclusions).
So what do I conclude? Just that its strange that the central tenet of Christianity..the divinity of Christ...is not more forcibly established in the Bible. Other people say he was divine, then others elaborate on that. But if you just look at what Jesus actually claimed for himself it appears to be a different story.
This may cover it....
Editorial disclaimer: the views expressed in the following article are not those of the poster.
Jesus Said
He Is God
What the Bible Teaches: JESUS
http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/said_god.htm
"I've heard that Jesus never actually claimed He was God."
John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, `I am the Son of God.'"
John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.
"When Jesus said 'I and the Father are one' didn't He just mean they are of one accord, they are merely like-minded?"
Taken alone, statements such as "I and the Father are one." and "The Father is in me, and I am in the Father." could mean simply that Jesus agrees with Jehovah. But in the overall context of the Bible this cannot be:
John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
John 17:10 [Speaking to the Father] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
Note: Jesus never claimed to be Jehovah. He claimed to be one "person" of the Trinity. (The term "person" refers to human beings and, therefore does not totally accurately describe the nature of these divine "persons." The late Dr. Walter Martin once described "God" as a being with "three centers of consciousness.")
Note: "Son of Man" was a term referring to the expected Messiah.
Mark 14:61b-62 [61b] Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" [62] "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Luke 22:66-70 [66] At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. [67] "If you are the Christ, " they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, [68] and if I asked you, you would not answer. [69] But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God." [70] They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."
Daniel 7:13-14 [13] "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. [14] He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
"If Jesus claimed He was God, why did He say the Father is greater?"
John 14:28 "You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Sadly, the original Greek text was mistranslated centuries ago and the mistranslation has become "tradition".
John 14:28 [Latin Vulgate] "audistis quia ego dixi vobis vado et venio ad vos si diligeretis me gauderetis utique quia vado ad Patrem quia Pater maior me est
The Latin word maior shown here is the source of the English words "major" and "majority".
In the original Greek, the word used for "greater" means more blessed, not greater in nature.
It's like saying "The President is greater than the Vice President."
On the word translated "greater"
Strong's Greek Concordance Number: 3107
Romanized spelling: makarios
Pronounciation: mak-AR-ee-os
Meaning: supremely blest; by extension, fortunate, well off: -- blessed, happy(-ier)
Jesus clearly and repeatedly indicated that He is not the one who "calls the shots":
John 14:31 the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
John 7:16 Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me."
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me."
John 17:3-12 [3] Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. [4] I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. [5] And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. [6] I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. [7] Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. [8] For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. [9] I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. [10] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. [11] I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one. [12] While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
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