god loves man, loves man not god.

I am confused also. Suppose a couple conceived a child with the intention of manipulating their other children into killing the baby, but claimed it was necessary to sacrifice the baby in order to avoid punishing their other children for less than perfect behavior. Suppose the parents withhold forgiveness from any child who does not watch a video of the gruesome murder and thank them for doing it. We would consider them evil, not loving.

Suppose that a God had ordered his followers to kill any false prophet who tried to get them to disregard his laws and covenant with them. Suppose that this god then impregnated a girl and inspired her bastard child to preach against the religious tenets as espoused by his accredited priests and religious leaders. This self-styled prophet even claimed that God was his real father, but their study of scriptures made it unthinkable for God to need or want a biological son. Those who loved God and followed his orders to the letter would have no choice other than to kill the man.

Jesus may well have been killed for political reasons, but it is completely illogical to believe that God is or was incapable of forgiving sins without bloodshed. If you are not worthy of eternal life on your own merits, killing someone else does not magically make you a better person.

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Terry wrote:

I am confused also. Suppose a couple conceived a child with the intention of manipulating their other children into killing the baby, but claimed it was necessary to sacrifice the baby in order to avoid punishing their other children for less than perfect behavior. Suppose the parents withhold forgiveness from any child who does not watch a video of the gruesome murder and thank them for doing it. We would consider them evil, not loving.

One particular distinction that should be made is that according to the bible, Jesus went to his death willingly. However, the rest of the above fits rather well.

Terry wrote:

Suppose that a God had ordered his followers to kill any false prophet who tried to get them to disregard his laws and covenant with them. Suppose that this god then impregnated a girl and inspired her bastard child to preach against the religious tenets as espoused by his accredited priests and religious leaders. This self-styled prophet even claimed that God was his real father, but their study of scriptures made it unthinkable for God to need or want a biological son. Those who loved God and followed his orders to the letter would have no choice other than to kill the man.

According to the bible, this is exactly what god did, and apparently for those exact reasons. Boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Terry wrote:

Jesus may well have been killed for political reasons, but it is completely illogical to believe that God is or was incapable of forgiving sins without bloodshed. If you are not worthy of eternal life on your own merits, killing someone else does not magically make you a better person.

Not completely illogical. The nature of religious sacrifice before Jesus was introduced into the picture was that by killing an animal in the ritual way, your sins would be transferred to that animal and thus you would be absolved and forgiven of said sins. It's not entirely known why God had the sudden shift in thought, perhaps he realized that the current goat population wouldn't be able to sustain the rapid growth of humanity.

This is one of the parts that I struggle with. I have some knowledge of the nature of man, and this dramatic shift in the ideology of Christianity smacks of a lazy following that no longer wished to go through all the bother of performing the rituals of sacrifice. Thus the story of Jesus and the "One sacrifice to cover all" dogma arises. Much like the industrial revolution made work easier for man, there is a rather obvious pattern throughout the bible of things getting easier for the believers. And the industrial revolution was inspired not by god, but by man.

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Questioner wrote:

Terry wrote:
I am confused also. Suppose a couple conceived a child with the intention of manipulating their other children into killing the baby, but claimed it was necessary to sacrifice the baby in order to avoid punishing their other children for less than perfect behavior. Suppose the parents withhold forgiveness from any child who does not watch a video of the gruesome murder and thank them for doing it. We would consider them evil, not loving.

One particular distinction that should be made is that according to the bible, Jesus went to his death willingly. However, the rest of the above fits rather well.

Well..since you agree with everything Terry posted but this one thing...and since Terry is my favorite poster here in A2K...I thought I would comment on the one disagreement.

Did Jesus go willingly to his death?

There is at least the possibility that Jesus thought himself to be the son of God. Maybe he went to what might be his execution supposing that his postion would cause "his father" to grant a last minute reprieve...that phone call from the governor the movies always show the warden awaiting.

On the cross, Jesus supposedly asked: Why hast thou forsaken me?

What do you suppose that was about?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

There is at least the possibility that Jesus thought himself to be the son of God. Maybe he went to what might be his execution supposing that his postion would cause "his father" to grant a last minute reprieve...that phone call from the governor the movies always show the warden awaiting.

On the cross, Jesus supposedly asked: Why hast thou forsaken me?

What do you suppose that was about?

Well, according to christian writings he said that more or less to fulfill a prophecy. It is argued that since god could not tolerate anything evil in his presence, that by dropping that last line Jesus was proving that he had, in fact, taken the sins of the world upon himself.

"Matthew 20:19 - and deliver him to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day." "

Apparently he knew what was coming. Went along with it anyway.

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Frank,

What 'that' was about was the fact that Christ took upon himself all the sins of the world and at that second became sin Himself.

I find that point rather small in comparison to the fact that Christ was raised three days later from the dead and ascended into heaven.

If Christ didn't complain about what He was going through and if He accepted it, why should anyone else have a problem with it.

And Cyracuz, I know I have seen that first comment of yours somewhere. Ah, yes, my signature. LOL

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

What 'that' was about was the fact that Christ took upon himself all the sins of the world and at that second became sin Himself.

I find that point rather small in comparison to the fact that Christ was raised three days later from the dead and ascended into heaven.

If Christ didn't complain about what He was going through and if He accepted it, why should anyone else have a problem with it.

And Cyracuz, I know I have seen that first comment of yours somewhere. Ah, yes, my signature. LOL

Interesting bunch of guesses. But I suspect it might not have done Jesus any good to do anything other than to "accept" what was happening. The Romans were not much for accepting "I am God" as a reason for stopping an execution.

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Yes, momma angel. Your signature was what triggered the whole thing.

When it comes to Jesus I am inclined to disregard everything except the things he supposedly said himself. I don't care if he rose from the dead, or if someone just played puppet master with his corpse. It's irrellevant. The greatness of jesus was something he earned while alive, as a man. Wether he was god incarnated or just another joe with a keen moral I don't know, and it's not important. What is important to me is the timeless wisdom he taught.

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Re: god loves man, loves man not god.

Cyracuz wrote:

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

I'm not surprised you are confused if you believe in the literal truth of this myth.

The World presumably means mankind. How does making a human sacrifice demostrate love of mankind? It would only be outstandingly impressive if Jesus had firmly established himself as the Son of God. How many times does he claim divinity in the bible?

Moreover the very first phrase is just another example (this time from Christians) of second guessing God. You must prove the validity of your assumptions before you start building an elaborate theory on them.

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Lol.. All of christianity is a big second guessing of god.

Quote:

You must prove the validity of your assumptions before you start building an elaborate theory on them.

Do you suppose that the people who voted on jesus' divinity many hundreds of years ago proved the validity of their assumptions first? Jesus' divinity is a pretty elaborate theory.

The thing that confuses me is how christians can press jesus to their hearts while they celebrate his demise like a conquering victor. It is a cheap hoax, nothing more. Real substance is found in the teachings of jesus, not on the crusifix. Jesus is dead, he isn't there anymore. So I climbed down off the cross and found the words he said while he was here. Among others: "There is no institution between man and god." Only one of many the church conveniently disregarded.

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Of course its not just Christians. Muslims and Jews are pretty adept at telling anyone who will listen what God likes and dislikes.

Its the sheer arrogance of these people that annoys me. They will not accept that they dont really know, that in fact they are ASSUMING a great deal. How arrogant is it to say you KNOW the mind of God Himself? And is it any wonder when they are confronted by other people who have the presumption to come to different conclusions about what God wants, that the disagreements start and the killing begins?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Interesting bunch of guesses. But I suspect it might not have done Jesus any good to do anything other than to "accept" what was happening. The Romans were not much for accepting "I am God" as a reason for stopping an execution.

Ironically, it wasn't the Roman's but the Jews that insisted Jesus was crucified, according to the bible. The Romans were perfectly willing to let him go.

However the point still stands that he didn't run and hide, but rather walked straight into the heart of the city whose leaders wanted him dead and basically said "here I am".

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Steve wrote:

Quote:

How arrogant is it to say you KNOW the mind of God Himself?

Not at all. I do. It is only arrogant to say you know the mind of god if you don't know it, wich is the case with most religious people.

I do know the mind of god, or I am learning it. What I know is that nothing that is possible to do is in defiance with god's will. I know that god's verdict on ALL HUMANS is equal. In fact, it's (god's) verdict on all of creation is equal. To god, a human and an amoeba are equally puny, or equally great.
Also, I know that god is too vast for anyone to comprehend fully. Luckily I know that it is possible to accuire flawless understanding without knowing everything. It's simple. You just have to understand what little you know. For the rest, trust that nature does what's best.

And lastly, I know that I am the most arrogant bastard of all here today. Smile

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Frank,

Christ, as the Son of God, had authority over everyone on earth. Had He chosen not to be crucified, He could have stopped it at any time.

Cyracuz, if you are inclined to disregard everything except the things Jesus 'supposedly' (your word) said Himself, you are obviously disregarding his telling of how "the temple would be destroyed but raised again in three days?" He was talking about Himself here and His death and His resurrection.

And His death and resurrection may be irrelevant to you, and if it is I don't understand why you would point it out as false then anyway, as it is not relevant? The greatness of Jesus is that He is the Son of God and He sacrificed Himself for the rest of the world. If you had a friend or a brother that jumped in front of a bullet for you, would you call that irrelevant?

The wisdom of Christ is timeless. But, let me ask you something. If, you find His teachings so full of wisdom, why then do you choose to disregard so much of it (according to what is written in the Bible?). I have been accused of disregarding or discarding a lot of the Bible. What makes us different in this respect then?

Cyracuz, I am sorry you believe John 3:16 is a myth. Again, you are asking that God or Christ would prove who He is. How many times does He claim divinity in the Bible? Well, I would suppose that would depend on what you have disregarded and what you have not.

And a conquering victor. Most definitely. He conquered sin and He conquered death.

You may feel Jesus isn't there anymore but He is. He is there for the world. If one chooses not to believe this, it does not make it any less a fact that HE IS there.

Steve, you call what I profess to believe and the fact that I believe it so strongly arrogance? I have never said I know the mind of God Himself. What I said was that I believe in my heart what laws He has laid down for mankind and that He loves us all.

And I haven't killed a single person for not believing what I believe. If you will remember, I do my best to understand what others think and believe and have a non-combative discussion with them. How many times have I asked others not to accuse and demean?

And Questioner is correct. Pontious Pilate tried to send Christ back to the Jewish Priests to handle Christ, as he felt that it was not Roman law that was at issue. It was the Jewish Priests that kept sending Him back to the Romans. The Jewish people were also given the choice of letting Christ go and Barrabas to die/and vice versa, but the Jewish people chose to let Barrabas go ~ a known thief and murderer, and political enemy.

And, finally Cyracuz, if you make the statement ......which is the case with most religious people, are you not stating then that you know more of the mind of God than they do because you have decided they are wrong?

What you know is that nothing that is possible to do is in defiance with God's will? God's verdict on all humans is equal? To God, a human and amoeba are equally puny or equally great? It sounds pretty much to me that you are saying you KNOW the mind of God. And, you also seem to be saying that it is okay to do anything? Does this mean there is no sin in your eyes? I am just going from your statement here so if I am incorrect, please let me know.

And I don't understand why you would take pleasure in being arrogant?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

Christ, as the Son of God, had authority over everyone on earth. Had He chosen not to be crucified, He could have stopped it at any time.

Right!

And I can cause a volcano to arise and erupt anywhere and anytime I want...but I just choose not to do so.

NOT!

In any case...these are some interesting guesses...even if they are blind, wild guesses...

...and I thank you for sharing them.

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Cyracuz wrote:

And lastly, I know that I am the most arrogant bastard of all here today.

Not on your best day. Twisted Evil

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And...strange as it may seem to someone who doesn't think this through...

...I am also the most humble.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Frank,

Christ, as the Son of God, had authority over everyone on earth. Had He chosen not to be crucified, He could have stopped it at any time.

Right!

And I can cause a volcano to arise and erupt anywhere and anytime I want...but I just choose not to do so.

NOT!

In any case...these are some interesting guesses...even if they are blind, wild guesses...

...and I thank you for sharing them.

Why do you keep saying "guesses"? You're arguing fiction against many people that have read the novel several times. What's the point? Most of the things argued are, in fact, in the bible. Therefore they aren't guesses, but known statements which appear in said book. Did it happen as it is stated in the bible? Probably not. But since you're essentially arguing against what is actually written down, no matter how outrageous it may be, you're actually the one that comes across as "guessing".

Not trying to be beligerent here, as I have decent enough respect for you given the other threads in which you've debated. This one seems rather a lost cause to me.

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Questioner wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
Frank,

Christ, as the Son of God, had authority over everyone on earth. Had He chosen not to be crucified, He could have stopped it at any time.

Right!

And I can cause a volcano to arise and erupt anywhere and anytime I want...but I just choose not to do so.

NOT!

In any case...these are some interesting guesses...even if they are blind, wild guesses...

...and I thank you for sharing them.

Why do you keep saying "guesses"?

Not to labor the point, but they are guesses. Or at least, it is my guess that they are guesses.

Quote:

You're arguing fiction against many people that have read the novel several times. What's the point? Most of the things argued are, in fact, in the bible. Therefore they aren't guesses, but known statements which appear in said book.

They may well be, but I am not arguing that they are not in the Bible.

MA said "Christ, as the Son of God, had authority over everyone on earth. Had He chosen not to be crucified, He could have stopped it at any time."

I am of the opinion that this is a guess MA is making...based in large part on another guess she is making....that the Bible speaks the truth.

So I am really not out of line.

Quote:

Did it happen as it is stated in the bible? Probably not. But since you're essentially arguing against what is actually written down, no matter how outrageous it may be, you're actually the one that comes across as "guessing".

Read the above...and if you are still of the same opinion when you do...let's discuss it.

(By the way....I most assuredly am guessing. Please never lose sight of that.)

Quote:

Not trying to be beligerent here, as I have decent enough respect for you given the other threads in which you've debated. This one seems rather a lost cause to me.

I have lots of respect for you too, Questioner....and for MA as well.

But I have made a conscious decision never to let these kinds of things go by without some sort of response.

Whether or not it is a lost cause is problematic. I have had an inordinate amount of success in getting others to adopt the agnostic position.

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god loves man, loves man not god.

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