How can one support the Palestinians and not the IRA?

Oh I gotta agree with the terrorism bit. If the Palestinians didn't employ terrorist tactics they would have had a state long ago. And each year that they don't get it there is less land available for a deal.

Then again if they had stopped after their initial losses their land would be much larger. Much, much larger.

They can be infuriatingly daft.

Yeah, like that new Palestinian restaurant that opened up not far from me with the slogan "Try our World-Famous Palestinian Cuisine, It's a Blast!" What were they thinking?

Just a personal anecdote: My cousin recently admitted a couple of things to his parents, my aunt and uncle. "Mom, dad, I'm gay." They said "Okay, that's fine, we accept your choice of lifestyle, we are happy you felt comfortable enough to tell us."

"I am also involved with another boy."

"That's great, no, really it is, building healthy relationships is important, as long as you are having safe sex."

"He's Palestinian."

"WHAT???"

Heh heh, brave Jewish kid there....we applaud him.

You reject the claim of "the so-called Palestinians" because you don't support the PLO or any kind of terrorism?

Your logic is erroneous.

That's like saying you don't' support Irish independence because of the IRA or any kind of terrorism.

Terrorism is merely a means toward an end, not an end unto itself.

You reject the claims of the Palestinians because of terrorism, yet you accept the claims and existence of Israel.

That is where you err.

This might be news to you, but Israel herself was founded upon terrorism, the Zionists can claim to be the first to perpetrate global terrorism, and Israelis have even elected these terrorist founding fathers to Israel's highest office, the Prime Ministry. One of these terrorist founding fathers was Menachem Begin, who was a member of Irgun Zvai Leumi. He orchestrated, among other niceties, the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. The other terrorist founding father of Israel was Yitzak Shamir, who was a member of Lohamei Herut Yisrael. The highlight of his terrorist career was the assassination of Lord Moyne, British Minister for Middle East Affairs in Cairo. It was the activities of these Zionists, all European emigrants, that finally drove out the British from Palestine. More than half of these terrorist groups' efforts went to terrorizing the Arab populace and Jewish informants and sympathizers. They, however, preferred time bombs to the suicide bombs of their Arab terrorist successors.

Also, the PLO doesn't exist anymore. The Palestinian Authority replaced it back during the Oslo agreements. Furthermore, the PA itself is in a state of flux right now, due to the change in the authority of the Palestinians as recognized by Israel and the U.S. of A. The Palestinian PM has denounced the terrorism perpetrated by the different Palestinian militant factions.

Craven de Kere makes a very sharp point about logomachy. It doesn't matter what you prefer to call these people. They are the people that got the short end of the stick in the European Zionists' arrogation of Palestine.

Whereas in Ireland, of course, my kith and kin have been doing this for centuries, and have gotten it down to a fine art . . . an on-line acquaitance who lives in the captive portion of Ulster once replied to someone's post about urban violence that he had, in his lifetime (a few more years than twenty) learned to fall asleep despite the distant rattle of armalites and kalishnikovs . . . Longbow came over in 1069, and, nine hundred years later, the Paddies in Derry had to scatter when gunfire from British troops erupted into their unarmed, non-violent civil rights march, styled on the actions of the Southern Christian Leadership Council. The Brits claimed they were fired on--no physical evidence of that has ever been produced, and there has never been any claim to an eyewitness of that shooter . . . groups like the ultra-left republican Provos (Provisional Wing, Irish Republican Army) and the ultra-right loyalist UDF (Ulster Defense Force) have gone narco-terrorist now, and crack is their stock-in-trade . . . the "Troubles" of my people were ancient and hoary in tooth and hair before a single "European Zionist" set up shop in Palestine . . . why y'all are just gettin' started, just think of the fun to come . . .

Well InfraBlue, seeing as neither Israel nor the Palestinians can be logical about the situation, I feel fine about supporting Israel and Ireland, and not supporting Palestinians or the IRA. If I err, and you know so much more than I, then you go over there and explain it to them. Good luck. Sheesh, I'm starting to remember why I hate politics....

Welcome to A2K, InfraBlue!

Thanks, WH.

I was invited to join A2K way back in December by perception, but I had lost the web address until two nights ago! I found it and this is the first forum I've posted to.

I tend to read more than I post, but once I get the hang of getting around A2K, I'll be adding my two cents more often here.

Thanks again!

How cavalier of you, cavfancier.

You sympathy, or lack thereof, is irrelavant to the issues here, and your feelings moreso. I only bring up THE HISTORY, because according to you, "you cannot possibly understand the present or the future without understanding history."

Learn a bit of it so that you may UNDERSTAND.

Thanks for the dig InfraBlue. Actually, my ears are open. Yes I did make that statement, but it was in response to these statements made by Craven:

"I don't use any past factors in my arguments'about Israel/Palestine. I care about the present and the future.

Historical similiarities IMO are not as relevant as current dissimilarities."

I thought he made a good point, but I just wanted to say that history cannot be ignored in these particular situations. Then I got to thinking that in both the Irish and the Palestinian situations, what we know of as 'history' is mostly propoganda, tainted by one side or the other, or just plain conjecture.

I might actually be swinging around to Craven's side on this. History obviously will not solve this problem. You mentioned that Craven brought up a good point regarding the fallacy of logomachy to deny people self-representation. He also brought up a good point in regards to if there was no Palestinian terrorism, they would most likely have a state and a homeland already. Now, getting back to the original post, it seems you do support the Palestinians. Do you also support the IRA? That was the original question.

Hang around a bit, you will find me a sometimes stubborn but willing listener Welcome to A2K.

Rotten sons-a-bitches, ever one

I support none of them, i despise those who support any of them

Heap murder on murder, may it never end . . .

give Sharon an Uzi and Arafat an Ak-47 and have a duel at noon. and may they both lose.

I have to agree, but I stated that earlier. Just curious as to other opinion regarding the original question.

When the moon rises over the meadow
And the grass is glistening with the dew
I'll come home and find you softly sleeping
And I'll throw up and I'll pass out next to you

When the moon rolls through the darkness
And the birds have all gone up to their beds
I'll be down at the pub with my buddies
And I'll kick all the teeth out of their heads

But come ye back when summer's in the meadow
And come ye back when winter's in the glen
For I'll be there and softly I'll sing for you
If the IRA haven't kidnapped me again

-Corky and the Juice Pigs

I think the IRA and the Pals are very similar.
When someone supports the Pals, I'm left to wonder why they don't also support the IRA.

The Brits have killed innocent Irishmen as well.
You can't really show any Irishmen or Pals, in a peace movement against their oppressors.
It seems to me the Pals and Irish are strongly identified with their terrorist 'freedom fighters'.

The Irish have survived a Brit attempt at ethnic cleansing. Barely.
As Setanta pointed out--the Irish have been assailed much longer than the Pals. Why aren't we helping them?

I believe Blair will be calling in favours from Bush for supporting the war in Iraq....or I should say, I am concerned about that. I shall reiterate, I oppose both.

Sofia,

Palestinians = terrorists + non-terrorists

I "support" the terrorists on neither side.

The Irish have all the support I can muster in ending their conflict. As do the Palestinians.

I support neither in the continuation of murder. What you construe as "support for Palestinians" is often just support to end the conflict. Why does the support have to be one sided? I do not support Isreal and their attempts to expand their territory. I do not support Palestinians who murder Israelis.

Can one not support policies that further the peace process instead of the simplistic notion of "supporting Palestinians"?

Although lessons drawn from Northern Ireland cannot easily be applied to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, there are, nonetheless, interesting parallels between the two situations, writes Derek Brown in today's 'Guardian':

Walter--thank you so much for the link.

I support the Irish as well as the Palestinians in their struggle for self-determination. I do not support Hamas, Hezbollah, or the IRA, though. The general populations should not be confused with their extremist elements.

Likewise, I support Israel's right to exist, but I condemn the terrorism that was perpetrated by the Zionists towards that end. The organized global terrorism that is plaguing the world, its most startling example being the bombing of the World Trade Center in the name of Palestine (among other grievances), is a direct succession of the organized global terrorism initiated by the Zionists terrorist groups in the mid twentieth century in the name of Palestine, and the Zionist cause thereof.

Should Ireland gain its independence, it would be wise to eschew an ethnic/religious based self-determination, and embrace one propitious to the general welfare, that of all of its citizens regardless of ethnicity or religion.