How can one support the Palestinians and not the IRA?

hypocritical.....

some things will never change, in the middle east or ireland. it will be an eternal fight...
i didn't read the whole thread, just the question. that's just my take on things in general.

nough said.

cavfancier,
your knowledge of the history of Palestine is superficial at best. The Turkish census of 1878 listed 462,465 Turkish subjects in the Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre districts: 403,795 Muslims (including Druze), 43,659 Christians and 15,011 Jews. In addition, there were at least 10,000 Jews with foreign citizenship (recent immigrants to the country), and several thousand Muslim Arab nomads (Bedouin) who were not counted as Ottoman subjects.

The Arabs in Palestine were by and large NOT nomadic, as they were distinguished from the Bedouin by the Ottomans at the time.

Hmm, so my history is foggy....however, I don't see a listing of PALESTINIANS anywhere in your list, just a bunch of different Arab sects, and Christians and Jews living in the same area. In addition, I do not support the PLO, or terrorism of any kind, hence, I reject the claim of the so-called Palestinians to that piece of land. It seems to me that there have been acceptable offers on the table which were rejected, or screwed up by more terrorism. Sorry, you are not buying any sympathy here.

While we are at it, perhaps we should look at this:

http://www.tzemach.org/fyi/docs/speak/nopal.htm

Good article cav, thanks for posting it.

It's sad when a logomachy is used to try to deny a populace self-determination.

Cav your above posts are either naive generalizations or quite twisted.

Regards.

Craven, all politics come down to how one defines words, whether you like that or not. Every legal system in the world depends on the interperatation of words, and of fine print, and this includes global law. I did not write the article I posted, I just put the link up for the interest of people following this topic. Folks can make up their own minds. Personally, I grew up with this conflict, and really, my only feelings are that I do not support terrorism. Maybe you feel it is necessary in certain situations....if that is the case, I will agree to disagree. I do hope you noticed that both Israelis and Arabs were quoted.

It has nothing to do with whether I support terrorism or not. In any case I don't think it's worth discussing with you.

Edit: There was no such thing as an Iraqi a while ago either. Who do you suppose should have their land?

Actually, Craven, in all seriousness, I do want to you to extrapolate on your statements. If I am missing something here, I want to know. I am sensitive to this issue, I admit, but I am willing to listen. Don't go weird on me here....please.

Craven, missed your edit...can you expand on that question/theory?

cav,

For several reasons I do not really want to discuss it (some of which as mundane as having to work). But to sum it all up I think the technicalities of a name for a group of people is a poor argument to try to deny self-determination.

Kinda like saying Jews shouldn't have a right to Isreal unless it is called Judea (a poor example).

The "reasoning" you posit is a common one used to try to make the claim that Isreal deserves all the Palestinian land, after all there is no such thing as a Palestinian right? I happen to think that zealots like that who are willing to do anything to justify Isreal's expantion and the future displacement of Palestinains to be as much in support of terror as the average Palestinian. It is due to greedy expantionists on both sides that the conflict is so drawn out. Your show of support for Israel's radical zealots and the logic they use to try to justify their expantion is sick. Just as it would be for someone to attempt to justify the Palestinian extremism. To do so is to support continued conflict.

If syria and Jordan and Egypt still controlled the land that is Israel now, do you think there would be a Palestine? I don't.

That in no way validates Israeli territorial expantion. Something I consider to be part of the root of the conflict.

Craven, I will try to clarify a few of my thoughts. I support Israel's right to the land that was granted to them. I do not support expansion, although if one was to make a case for Imperialism, the USA would top my list. I do not support the right of Palestinians to all of Israel. I do support continuing talks, and less violence on both sides. It is an imperfect solution, but it's the only one we have at the moment. I do not support Israel's zealots, or any zealots for that matter. I am not even religious. I support the right to post articles and or ideas in a political forum that may not be palatable to some for the sake of debate. I do not support being called "sick" for it. And my hamster can lift more than yours...

None of these countries have ever controlled "the land that is Israel now"--in 1948, Palestine was a British protectorate. In 1967, the Israeli's invaded Jordan by crossing the river of the same name, they invaded Syria in the Golan Heights, and they took the Gaza strip and the Sinai penninsula. They have since pulled back partially in the Golan, keeping control of the limited water resources there. They have returned the Sinai to Egypt, and have agreed to guarantee the Gaza strip and the west bank area of the Jordan river which had not previously been a part of their nation's territory as Palestinian territory. The arguments given here to the effect of the Palestinians not really being a people and never having had any territory are gross corruptions of historical fact. The historical fact is that Palestine existed as a British Protectorate in 1948, and Jewish thugs and terrorists, known as freedom fighters because they sought the popular goal (popular among other Jews in the world, and guilt-ridden Europeans) of creating a Jewish homeland, fought a war with the British until they had created the state of Israel. Whether or not one considers this to have been a just act, and whether or not one believes that "Israel has a right to exist," the fact remains that Palestine and its Palestinian population existed before Israel did.

Setanta, don't you think then that stopping the violence and continuing talks is the right way to go? Christians have every right to claim Jerusalem as their own, as Muslims and Jews do. However, I don't see them sending out suicide bombers. I just want to see some rational talk resume. One can dream...

Are you sure that you believe this?

Yes, and stopping the violence also means no more helicopter gunships attacking cars on the road, such as happened today, as much as it means no more suicide bombers . . . personally, Cav, i don't think there are any good guys in this story . . .

I know if for a fact--from the entry of Allenby into Jerusalem with a British Army during the First World War until the Brits gave up and pulled out in 1948--it doesn't matter if your propaganda masters have fed you some right-wing christian bullshit to the contrary, those are the facts . . .

I. B.C.
600,000 - 10,000
Paleolithic and Mesolithic period. Earliest human remains in the area (found south of the Lake of Tabariyya), date back to ca. 600,000 BC.
10,000 - 5,000
Neolithic period. Establishment of settled agricultural communities.
5,000 - 3,000
Chalcolithic period. Copper and stone tools and artifacts from this period found near Jericho, Bi'r As-Sabi' and the Dead Sea.
3,000 - 2,000
Early Bronze Age.Arrival and settlement of the Canaanites (3,000 - 2,500 BC)
ca. 1,250
Israelite conquest of Canaan.
965 - 928
King Solomon (Sulayman), construction of the temple in Jerusalem.
928
Division of the Israelite state into the kingdom of Israel and Judah.
721
Assyrian conquest of the kingdom of Israel.
586
Judah defeated by Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar, deportation of its population to Babylon and destruction of the temple.
539
Persians conquer Babylonia, allowance of deportees to return and construction of a new temple.
333
Alexander the Great conquers Persia and Palestine comes under the Greek rule.
323
Alexander the Great dies, alternate rule by Ptolemies of Egypt and Seleucids of Syria.
165
Maccabees revolt against the Seleucid ruler (Antiochus Epiphanes) and establish an independent state.
63
Incorporation of Palestine into the Roman Empire.