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How can one support the Palestinians and not the IRA?

 
 
McGentrix
 
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Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 01:18 pm
I guess your "facts" are wrong. Much like they always are.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 01:20 pm
cav,

Just a quibble but I never called you sick. I called support for continued mideast conflict sick and that is something yousay you do not do. :-)

And your hamster uses steroids. Not a fair comparison.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 01:21 pm
McG,

Always? Come on, you are setting yourself up.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 01:23 pm
Setanta, I have to agree. Yes, I support Israel, in theory, but there really are no good guys in this scenario, as is the case in Ireland, regarding the IRA, which I would love to hear more about, as we have only been talking about one side of the original topic here. I am POSITIVE you have plenty of history regarding the IRA and the "Irish Problem" that I would love to read. Also, next time you are in T.O., I have narrowed it down to 2 Irish pubs....
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 01:24 pm
Heh heh, Craven, it's okay, they haven't tested him yet...but he beat Slappy in a groin-wrestling match. Smile
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 01:24 pm
You forgot the source of the above quotation, McGentix:
Palestine-Net: Chronology of Palestinian History, from: All That Remains (ed. Walid Khalidi)

What facts are wrong?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 01:26 pm
Oops, sorry.
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McGentrix
 
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Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 01:34 pm
Link

Quote:
WHAT DOES "PALESTINE" MEAN?

It has never been the name of a nation or state. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there.

The word itself derives from "Peleshet", a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as "Philistine". The Philistines were mediterranean people originating from Asia Minor and Greek localities. They reached the southern coast of Israel in several waves. One group arrived in the pre-patriarchal period and settled south of Beersheba in Gerar where they came into conflict with Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. Another group, coming from Crete after being repulsed from an attempted invasion of Egypt by Rameses III in 1194 BCE, seized the southern coastal area, where they founded five settlements (Gaza, Ascalon, Ashdod, Ekron and Gat). In the Persian and Greek periods, foreign settlers - chiefly from the Mediterranean islands - overran the Philistine districts. From the time of Herodotus, Greeks called the eastern coast of the Mediterranean "Syria Palaestina".

The Philistines were not Arabs nor even Semites, they were most closely related to the Greeks. They did not speak Arabic. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs. The name "Falastin" that Arabs today use for "Palestine" is not an Arabic name. It is the Arab pronunciation of the Greco-Roman "Palastina"; which is derived from the Peleshet, (root Pelesh) which was a general term meaning "dividers", "penetrators" or "invaders". This referred to the Philistine's invasion and conquest of the coast from the sea.

The use of the term "Palestinian" for an Arab ethnic group is a modern political creation which has no basis in fact - and had never had any international or academic credibility before 1967.

HOW DID THE LAND OF ISRAEL BECOME "PALESTINE"?

In the First Century CE, the Romans crushed the independent kingdom of Judea. After the failed rebellion of Bar Kokhba in the Second Century CE, the Roman Emperor Hadrian determined to wipe out the identity of Israel-Judah-Judea. Therefore, he took the name Palastina and imposed it on all the Land of Israel. At the same time, he changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina.

The Romans killed many Jews and sold many more in slavery. Some of those
who survived still alive and free left the devastated country, but there was never a complete abandonment of the Land. There was never a time when there were not Jews and Jewish communities, though the size and conditions of those
communities fluctuated greatly.

THE HISTORY OF PALESTINE

Thousands of years before the Romans invented "Palastina" the land had been known as "Canaan". The Canaanites had many tiny city-states, each one at times independent and at times a vassal of an Egyptian or Hittite king. The Canaanites never united into a state. After the Exodus from Egypt probably in the Thirteenth Century BCE but perhaps earlier -- , the Children of Israel settled in the land of Canaan. There they formed first a tribal confederation, and then the biblical kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and the post-biblical kingdom of Judea.

From the beginning of history to this day, Israel-Judah-Judea has the only united, independent, sovereign nation-state that ever existed in "Palestine" west of the Jordan River. (In biblical times, Ammon, Moab and Edom as well as Israel had land east of the Jordan, but they disappeared in antiquity and no other nation took their place until the British invented Trans-Jordan in the 1920s.)

After the Roman conquest of Judea, "Palastina" became a province of the pagan Roman Empire and then of the Christian Byzantine Empire, and very briefly of the Zoroastrian Persian Empire. In 638 CE, an Arab-Muslim Caliph took Palastina away from the Byzantine Empire and made it part of an Arab-Muslim Empire. The Arabs, who had no name of their own for this region, adopted the Greco-Roman name Palastina, that they pronounced "Falastin".

In that period, much of the mixed population of Palastina was forced to convert to Islam and adopted the Arabic language. They were subjects of a distant Caliph who ruled them from his capital, that was first in Damascus and later in Baghdad. They did not become a nation or an independent state, or develop a distinct society or culture.

In 1099, Christian Crusaders from Europe conquered Palestina-Falastin. After 1099, it was never again under Arab rule. The Christian Crusader kingdom was politically independent, but never developed a national identity. It remained a military outpost of Christian Europe, and lasted less than 100 years. Thereafter, Palestine was joined to Syria as a subject province first of the Mameluks, ethnically mixed slave-warriors whose center was in Egypt, and then of the Ottoman Turks, whose capital was in Istanbul.

During the First World War, the British took Palestine from the Ottoman Turks. At the end of the war, the Ottoman Empire collapsed and among its subject provinces "Palestine" was assigned to the British, to govern temporarily as a mandate from the League of Nations.

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 01:40 pm
Well, this wellbiased article is by the really neutral Eretzy Yisroel Organisation :wink:
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McGentrix
 
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Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 01:45 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, this wellbiased article is by the really neutral Eretzy Yisroel Organisation :wink:


Your implying that it is wrong? Can you do something other than shoot from the hip to prove that it is baseless?
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 01:47 pm
Read for instance some history book or have a look at an encyclopaedia, e.g. Britannica - you'll see the difference at once!
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 01:48 pm
Walter is German...I see what's going on here....heh heh, just kidding. Can we talk about the IRA now?
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 01:59 pm
Germany, cav, has never been the name of a state until 1871 or nation until (perhaps) middle of 15th century (when 'Holy Roman Empire of German Nation' became common) :wink:
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 02:02 pm
McGentrix,

You are right that Palestine was not a state. But neither was the USA at one point. I fail to see the relevance. Are you suggesting that statehood is a prerequisite for self-determination?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 02:04 pm
Eskimos never had a state called Eskimolandia.

Therefore Eskimos don't exist and have no rights. :-)
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 02:06 pm
Never been there Walter, but thanks for the info! One thing I do know, between the PLO and the IRA, the Irish clearly had better songs. This one is quite pointed I think, and relevant to this topic:

The Patriot Game
Dominic Behan

Come all you young rebels and list while I sing
For love of ones land is a terrible thing
It banishes fear with the speed of a flame
And makes us all part of the patriot game

My name is O'Hanlon, I'm just gone sixteen
My home is in Monaghan there I was weaned
I learned all my life cruel England to blame
And so I'm part of the patriot game

It's barely a year since I wandered away
With the local battalions of the bold IRA
I read of our heroes and wanted the same
To play up my part in the patriot game

They told me how Connolly was shot in a chair
His wounds from the fighting all bleeding and bare
His fine body twisted all battered and lame
They soon made me part of the patriot game

This Ireland of mine has for long been half-free
Six Counties are under John Bull's Monarchy
But still DeValera is greatly to blame
For shirking his part in the patriot game

I don't mind a bit if I shoot down police
They are lackeys for war never guardians of peace
And yet at deserters I'd never let aim
The rebels who sold out the patriot game

And now as I lie with my body all holes
I think of those traitors who bargained and sold
I'm sorry my rifle has not done the same
For the Quislings who sold out the patriot game
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 02:13 pm
Actually Craven, the Eskimos prefer to be called the Inuit now (not to be confused with the Innu, who reside in Labrador), and they do have their own self-governed homeland right here in Canada:

http://www.gov.nu.ca/
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 02:14 pm
Razz
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 02:16 pm
But they shouldn't. After all, they never had a state. :-)

'Twas just poking fun at the logic cav. This is what I meant way back when I said a logomachy is a poor excuse for expantionism.

"Palestinians should have a state, just like Isreal"

"Wait a minute, try this on for size. Palestinians don't even exist!! The name is a false one!"

"Damn, quite right. Those lying bastards don't even exist so they certainly don't deserve a state. Thanks for setting me straight."
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 02:45 pm
Heh heh, I know what you were getting at CdK, and the logic was flawed, but this argument goes way beyond logic now, otherwise it would have been settled already.

As for the Inuit, they never wanted to expand, just live where they had for centuries and preserve their way of life (oh my, just like the Palestinians). However....they did not send suicide bombers to Ottawa to make a point, they negotiated, and got a chunk of land WAY bigger than Israel Razz As long as deep-rooted religious and historical hatred continue to colour negotiations in the Middle East and in Ireland, there really is no hope for peace or logic in this matter. Here is a question: Do all people deserve a homeland to call their own? There are plenty of homelands around. If nobody wants you, do you have the right to force your way in somewhere, just because you think you are entitled? Shouldn't there be a legal criteria to give homelands to people? Hmm...all interesting questions that will probably never be answered. Today, I still vote for the slow wheels of the imperfect system we have to settle these matters, rather than terrorism. Now I shop for pork to cook, just to insult my Jewish heritage, and my wife's half-Muslim heritage... Smile
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