"I COULD care less" or "I COULDN'T care less" Which is it?

How could I know you were being sarcastic? English humor doesn't know the first thing about sarcasm.

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I think Thomas correct re the sarcasm (as I said in my first post), but I also think he overstates his case.

From what I read and hear from many Americans, the phrase "I could care less" has simply replaced "I couldn't care less" and is used without any consciousness of its contradictoriness, as with many incorrectly used phrases, and without sarcasm.

We need an accurate sarcasm meter with every use of the phrase to determine its correctness.

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Thomas wrote:

How could I know you were being sarcastic? English humor doesn't know the first thing about sarcasm.

OOOOOOH! Now there's gonna be a fight!

And fights on these word threads make politics look like a sunday school picnic.....

http://www.animationlibrary.com/Animation11/Computers_and_Technology/Computers_and_Parts/fight.gif

http://www.animationlibrary.com/Animation11/Transportation/Planes/dogfight.gif

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dlowan wrote:

From what I read and hear from many Americans, the phrase "I could care less" has simply replaced "I couldn't care less" and is used without any consciousness of its contradictoriness, as with many incorrectly used phrases, and without sarcasm.

Well there's also the gettn rid of the waste in English English. Needed fixin. Gotta economize, see?

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I think you have to be careful if sarcasm is used to completely change the meaning of a phrase...as in

When I said the bridge could take the weight....

I WAS ONLY BEING SARCASTIC Sad

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

When I said the bridge could take the weight....

I WAS ONLY BEING SARCASTIC

Actually, I think that's a pretty good one. I must try it on my sister's ex someday.

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Good grief! What is Kicky going to do now? He starts a thread as a bit of a laugh, then has it taken over by people using big words, such as sarcasm, contradictoriness, demonstrandum and bridge.

Mind you, I suppose he could care less. DOH!

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why is he a bit overweight?

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I don't give a damn.

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I knew sarcasm. Sarcasm was a close personal friend of mine. And sayers of "I could care less" -- you are no sarcasm.

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How riveting. I can barely keep my eyes open with all the excitement.....

(D'ya like the dogfight I got for you Patio?)

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Let's try to keep some perspective about language. When we compare this collocation to any other in the English language, we note some very important things;

1) it's fully grammatical.

2) it has a full meaning, even to the naysayers.

3) it's in constant and repeatable use by a large segment of the population.

4) it doesn't matter in the least that some speakers of AuE or BrE or even AmE don't like it. Preferences do not drive language or prevent language change.

Variations on language have always occurred and will continue to occur.

As one linguist put it;

" ... the process of linguistic change seems as ineluctable and impersonal as continental drift. From this Olympian point of view, not even the Norman invasion had much of an effect on the structure of the language, and all the tirades of all the grammarians since the Renaissance sound like the prattlings of landscape gardeners who hope by frantic efforts to keep Alaska from bumping into Asia."

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But it doesn't have full meaning, by itself. The only way it has meaning is by sarcasm, or investing the literal meaning with a tone that indicates you mean the opposite, and several of us have noted that's not how it's actually used.

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sozobe wrote:

But it doesn't have full meaning, by itself. The only way it has meaning is by sarcasm, or investing the literal meaning with a tone that indicates you mean the opposite, and several of us have noted that's not how it's actually used.

That's an impossibility, Sozobe. Just because some happen to believe with the conscious thinking portion of their brains, that such and such is true about language, doesn't make it so.

For millions, untainted by prescriptions, "I could care less" has the same meaning as "I couldn't care less". This is a feature of language that occurs in other collocations also.

Even if one parses the meaning differently, the effect is the same. Someone who seeks commiseration isn't at all likely to be thrilled by someone who gives the limited endorsement this collocation represents.

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But you initially resorted to sarcasm to make the statement true, and now you've moved on to "language as tool"... Without sarcasm it is a malapropism, however common. With it -- well, it's not in common usage at all.

But that's not the point. The point is that you've modified your position to be more correct, and THAT'S NOT WHAT WE DO AROUND HERE. Take a look at the political boards, for the sake of Peter. Nary a foolish position is adopted but it is defended, tooth and nail, as though it were dogma. Stand by your guns man, even if the barrels explode!

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Heehee. It is probably on its way to being the same, in useage, as "I couldn't care less>"

It will become a phrase that is used with no analysis of its parts, except by people interested in English.

Eg: How many people actually have any idea what "In one fell swoop" actually refers to? They know what the phrase means in current English, but not why it means that.

There are many phrases like that, and I suspect "I could care less" is on its way to becoming an oddish example of one.

BUT IT'S LOOPY NONETHELESS!!

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patiodog wrote:

But you initially resorted to sarcasm to make the statement true, and now you've moved on to "language as tool"...

Think about what you've just said, PD. How can sarcasm make something true or false?

Without sarcasm it is a malapropism, however common. With it -- well, it's not in common usage at all.

A simple Google search should cause one to view this contention with a measure of scepticism, wouldn't you think?

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,770,000 English pages for "could care less".

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,490,000 English pages for "couldn't care less".

But that's not the point. The point is that you've modified your position to be more correct, and THAT'S NOT WHAT WE DO AROUND HERE. Take a look at the political boards, for the sake of Peter. Nary a foolish position is adopted but it is not defended, tooth and nail, as though it were dogma. Stand by your guns man, even if the barrels explode!

Actually the point, the germane one, is that there could be a hundred different positions. None of them support the errant contention that "could care less" is not part of Standard English. As noted it is fully grammatical, it's an exceedingly common structure and its meaning is fully comprehensible to every native speaker of English and more than a few non-native ones.

I'm always surprized at just how firmly some are wedded to these bubbe maise.

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dlowan wrote:

It will become a phrase that is used with no analysis of its parts, except by people interested in English.

Eg: How many people actually have any idea what "In one fell swoop" actually refers to? They know what the phrase means in current English, but not why it means that.

Here's a good example. Language is meant for people to use. Studying about language and how it's used, especially etymology, doesn't make one a gifted writer or an excellent orator.

It doesn't matter one iota how something came to be used in English. It doesn't matter that the meaning for a word or phrase is changed to meet a modern day meaning. If everyone wanted to call a rose a lowan, there's no conceivable reason for that not to come to pass.

Check an old book of English idioms; while you'll recognize them all as English in structure and sound, on many or most, you'll have not a clue as to the meaning. Some have been recycled and given new meaning. That's how language works.

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sozobe wrote:

But it doesn't have full meaning, by itself.

Meaning, schmeaning. I'd tell you what I could do less about meaning, but I suspect you already know.

When somebody says to you: "I could care less", do you understand what he's telling you? If so, the sentence does have full meaning.

By the way, why does this thread remind me of one of those English lessons in the last hour before school was over? [throws paper ball at Sozobe]

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So the dog, Rosie the rivetter (I think) are on my side, the rabbit's neutral. In the opposing camp is a frighteningly intelligent German physicist (who must stop throwing paper about) and a person possibly of chichanese extraction.

Chichan you said yourself, "how can sarcasm make something true or false" ? I asked that question earlier.

but you went on to say

"... "I could care less" has the same meaning as "I couldn't care less".... "

Which space-time continuum did you say you came from?

Where, in our Universe, does a statement, and the direct negation of that statement, have the same meaning?

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"I COULD care less" or "I COULDN'T care less" Which is it?

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