Under God With Liberty

Auroell,

What a well put statement! Right to the heart of the matter. Thank you for posting that!

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Momma Angel wrote:

Rex Reed Wrote:

Quote:
So are you saying I am going to hell? Only one of us can be right?

Jeus Christ is not God...

Unlike you, you are the one that sounds overconfident I am willing to discuss the particulars and you just seem to just want to drop it...

And you may wonder, is "idolatry" is a speeding train that can have devastating consequences on one's salvation.

I did not say that you were going to hell nor did I say that only one of us can be right. What I said was, I am confident in the assuredness of my salvation so you don't need to yank me out from in front of any train.

Discuss what particulars? You gave your verses and I gave you my opinion, feelings, and explanation. I'm not changing my mind and obviously you are not either. So, what's to discuss? If you want to keep going it is just going to be a back and forth tit for tat thing that will get no where very fast.

And, I have already told you, I am not an idolator. I have not labeled you as anything because of your beliefs, and I believe that I deserve the same respect. I don't wish to discuss something with someone that is calling me names.

Well you cannot make the claim that I am worshiping God in idolatry considering I only have ONE God...

On the hand you have three

God + God + God = 3 Gods not 1... the is no "mystery" to math...

Thou shalt have no other "Gods" before me...

No matter how you try to reason it it is still idolatry...

Who was Jesus talking to when he was praying to God in the garden, himself?

When God gave Jesus grace why did he give himself something he already had?

Jeus was his own father and the list goes on and on.

When he was dead in the grave he was not "REALLY" dead if he could raise himself up...

He couldn't have been the "second Adam" because Adam was not his own creator...

Man put himself into sin and it was a man that would have to right things... But God cheated and came down and masqueraded as man...

Jesus did not REALLY suffer on the cross because he was really God...

The only Mystery of the trinity is Mystery Babylon...

These are the words of the Bible and if you take issue with them then I would say it is time to rethink your faith...

My faith is simple...

One God and one son of God who is the image of God but not God himself...

The holy spirit is the power of God an image of God in us...

The Bible says Jesus was with God in the beginning but it also says we were with God in the beginning too. Does the make us God too? Maybe there are more than three Gods? And how does Mary "the mother of God" fit in that is five Gods... Maybe we should also pray to the "saints"?

Maybe we should pray to the ONE true God...

Jesus and us were with God in the beginning in God's foreknowledge not in person...

The word "was" God... but then it became other things [laws] until it became living in Christ Jesus and us as liberty...

I am not saying this to insult you just to make you think...

If you were not so engrained by your religion and cared more about the actual "written word" you might "change your mind" or make some consideration...

To God be the Glory
Peace with God

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auroreII wrote:

It is imparative that "under God" be in the pledge of allegiance to insure freedom of religion, the freedom to believe in whatever god or system of beliefs we want to believe in, even if that god is no god.
If our allegiance is solely to our government then we are abdicating our right to live by our own conscience. Our government becomes our higher power and we have pledged to follow it.
This is from a letter to the editor of our newspaper.

Pledge lets us choose our own God.
(In response to a letter written by W. Roberts. It) is demonstrably wrong in his claim that the addition of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance detracts from his freedom to believe as he pleases. Its value lies precisely in the fact that it allows him to define "god" however he wishes, and then authorizes him to attach his loyalties ultimately to that instead of narrowly to the nation.
Here in the 21st century, the Cold War intentions of the congressmen who added these words to the pledge are irrelevant when set alongside the actual words themselves, which remind us citizens that we are not compelled or even encouraged to attach our ultimate allegiance to the government.
Mr. Roberts properly exercises the phrase "under God" when he writes: "My own true allegiance is to the land and the people, not to any political government." If that, to him, is the "God" under which the American government must stand and to which it must be held accountable, then as a fellow citizen I may heartily endorse his faith.
However, I must confess I am a bit uncomfortable with the notion of attaching one's highest allegiance to something as vague as "land and people", which was the operational Nazi definition of the sacred (Land und Volk). The point is this: Are there principles and values that transcend even land and people, to which a good citizen must attach still higher loyalties? Mr. Roberts would probably agree that there surely are. The words "under God" give him and me and every one of us the exact same license- to choose personally what we believe these "sacred" things to be and to regard them as more worthy
of our allegiance than even the flag and the republic for which it stands.

G. Herion

I would certainly hope that all Amerians would pledge their allegiance to helping America and americans. I have seen this acted out recently in the enormous response of the general public to the hurricane victims and that makes me proud be an american even though the response of the government is being questioned.

Ditto thanks...

When Govt' becomes God then we lose liberty...

Atheists and aggies don't realize under government is worse than under God... There needs to be some form of "rule" and when you remove God then as you said the government becomes the ONLY higher power... then there is no accountability and the people lose freedom to choose their own god or non-god.

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You know what? You lost me the minute you said I cannot make the claim that I am worshipping God in idolatry considering I only have ONE God...On the hand that you have three.

I WORSHIP ONE GOD. I haven't got the foggiest notion of just what it is that you believe you have to believe to gain salvation. You haven't made it clear at all. I told you what I believe. I use John 3:16 in my signature because that is what I believe. Christ died on the cross to save me from my sins. I try my best to live a Christ-like life. I don't tell someone just because they do not understand or believe what I believe that they are going to hell or they are committing idolatry.

You do not understand the concept of the trinity as I understand it. So what? It's a difference in beliefs. I do not think that anyone agrees with EVERY SINGLE aspect of a given religion or faith. It's impossible because man's free will gets in the way.

I share what I believe and I listen to what others believe and I make discernments from that.

And what does But God cheated and came down and masqueraded as man mean?

And the Bible says that no one gets through to the Father save through me. That is why I pray in Christ's name.

The only thing you are making me think is I understand even more how non-believers get upset when someone continually tells them they are wrong about what they think and their way is the only way. This is causing frustration in me right now because it is against Christ's teachings for Christians to do that. I can only imagine the anger and frustration it causes in those who do not believe at all.

If you continue to try to force this down my throat, I would submit to you that you are putting yourself above Christ since He has said this kind of Christian behavior is totally unacceptable.

So Rex, just what do you believe you have to believe to go to heaven? Just who is the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to you and in your faith? You keep pointing out where you think I am wrong and you are right and yet I haven't got the foggiest notion of what you believe, other than that you believe I am an idolator and that you are right.

And yes, I am getting a bit angry. I am angry because I have tried to point out to you that even though I applaud the fact you have strong beliefs and are willing to stand up to them, you take it too far when you will not let someone use their free will to decide their beliefs. That's the reason God gave us free will. To decide for ourselves. You can't force someone to believe or not to believe. If that were the case, I think God would probably make us all believe the way He wants us to and not the way we all choose to.

Rex Reed Wrote:

Quote:

... then there is no accountability and the people lose freedom to choose their own god or non-god.

And just what do you think I have been trying to tell you?

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Momma,

1 plus 1 plus 1 equals three...

No mystery about that...

Please comment on that...

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you wrote:

You do not understand the concept of the trinity

Comment:
Apparently neither do you...

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You asked:
Just who is the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to you and in your faith?

Comment: To me Jesus Christ is the image of God but not God. Just as you and I are the image of God. But, we are only the "image" of God due to the works of our dear lord and savior...

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The Bible calls God our "savior" too. Christ Jesus is the "image" of God but not God... the Bible says we are in the image of God too... But are we God?

It is time to teach the world this... Smile

They hunger after this truth...

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Jesus did not preexist and things are much more simpler than you and your priest/monk/saints make them...

The only "person" is GOD... the rest is all Babylonian demagoguery...

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You wrote:
And yes, I am getting a bit angry. I am angry because I have tried to point out to you that even though I applaud the fact you have strong beliefs and are willing to stand up to them, you take it too far when you will not let someone use their free will to decide their beliefs.

Comment:

When you place yourself in the place you do with your beliefs you stand vulnerable to attack from "the word of God"...

Maybe it is time to stop sucking up to your religion and start reading the word... Smile

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you wrote:
when you will not let someone use their free will to decide their beliefs.

Comment:
Some of my best friends are confessed witches...

I pray for them and interact daily with them...

You cannot pull that one on me...

You are just upset because the "Word" contradicts you...

I did not write the book...

Again, time to rethink... you do not want to be caught up in your "religion"... by biblical scholars who read the word daily...

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If you want to be caught up in your babylonian trinity I will pray for you too and love you with all honesty but I will NOT refrain from speaking the WORD. If you take offence that is all contained within your own system of "religion" not mine... Especially when you have said YOUR "word" too. If you are offended by my opinion (based on the Bible) well, that is your "problem" I am happy with my ONE God, and again I pray for you, love you and accept your diversion from "THE WORD OF GOD"...

Again you can see the seriousness of this discussion and that it cannot be belittled... and "dropped".

God is One God...

Ephesians 4:
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

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Momma,

You are not mad at me... you are mad at the BIBLE... because it does not support your "religions" trinity...

It will never support it...

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Frank, you know I have been waiting for this trinity discussion... Smile

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Rex,

The reason I don't want to continue with this discussion with you is because it is not a discussion. It is you telling me I am wrong and I still haven't the foggiest idea of what you actually believe. Yes, you quote scripture. I can do the same. But, what Bible are you quoting from? You have yet to mention John 3:16 or respond to the fact that Christ said, No one gets to the Father, save through me. I am the truth, the way, and the life.

And honey, in everyone's life, there is something they do that contradicts the Bible. We are not perfect. We all sin. God knows that. Why do you think He provided us grace and salvation?

Until you start having a discussion with me instead of just telling me that I am not a Christian (which is in essence, what I feel you are doing) I am not going to answer you after this. And, if you will look at my previous post, it will say the Bible does not support the word "trinity", just the concept.

I have tried and tried to fully explain what I feel and believe. What I get from you is a little bit of this and a little bit of that. You don't answer my questions directly. Why is that? Are you ashamed of what you believe? I'm not. I told you EXACTLY what I believe you have to believe to get to heaven. I will take it even one step father, if I had to put a denomination to my faith, it would be Baptist. Now, can you answer these questions for me:

1. If you had to put a name to your faith (i.e., Jehovah's Witness, Buddhist, Baptist, etc.) what would it be?

And I have commented on your 1 plus 1 equals 3. You just don't accept it. And that's fine, you don't have to.

Again, it is not what you believe that offends me. What offends me is that I try so hard to get non-believers to understand that not all Christians are alike and try to force our beliefs down their throats. But, Rex, that is exactly what you are trying to do to me. This is only causing more diversion. A discussion is fine, even welcomed. But, if you cannot stop from flat out telling me I am an idolator, practice demagoguery, I don't know the real "word", etc., I am going to have to stop. We, as Christians, are supposed to plant the seed. You can't force anyone to believe anything. The harder you try to force someone to believe something, the harder they will stand on their non-belief.

So, if you really wish to have a discussion, please answer my questions and we can go from there. If you choose not to answer my questions, then I will not continue in this vein with you further.

2. What version of the Bible are you quoting from (i.e., King James, NIV, etc.)

3. EXACTLY what do you believe you have to believe or do to receive salvation?

If you will answer these questions then I will gladly carry on a discussion with you. You keep coming out of left field with answers that do nothing but confuse me even more.

Rex Reed Wrote:

Quote:

Frank, you know I have been waiting for this trinity discussion...

I had to come back and address this. It's been bugging me since I read it earlier. I am a bit puzzled here, Rex. You seek to gain the favor of a self-professed agnostic? Frank, no offense meant to you. I'm just perplexed by why a professed Christian would seek approval or favor of someone who admits to not even knowing if God exists and who has repeatedly pointed out in these threads that he feels the God of the Bible to be barbaric, idiotic, a scumbag, and a cartoon God. Perplexed to no end. I think this speaks for itself, Rex.

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RexRed wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Two Gods? I am not sure I understand what you are talking about. Can you elaborate, please?

The Bible is not monotheistic but teaches of TWO Gods...

The God of this world and the one TRUE God...

2Co 4:4
In whom the god [theos] of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

RexRed, from which Bible are you quoting? According to King James Version 2nd Corinthians; 4-10, to put into context, reads:

3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8. We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9. Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10. Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

I will also quote the Holy Bible from the ancient eastern test, which is George M. Lamsa's translation from the Aramaic of the Peshita (Aramaic is the language Jesus spoke):

3. If our gospel is hidden, it is hidden to those who are lost.
4. To those in this world whose minds have been blinded by God, because they did not believe, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the likeness of God, should shine on them.
5. For we do not preach about ourselves but about Christ Jesus our Lord; and as for ourselves we are your servants for Jesus' sake.
6. For God, who said let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts so that we may be enlightened with the knowledge of the glory of God in the person of Christ.
7. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of power may be from God, and not from us.
8. We are distressed in every way but not overwhelmed; we are harassed on all sides, but not conquered;
9. Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10. For we always bear in our bodies the death of Jesus, that the life of Jesus might also be made manifest in our bodies.

So, the "god of the O.T." is, at least from this scripture, not the same as the loving God of which Jesus described, whom, he did definitely describe when he lived, as being within him. That would be the same, I would think, as being one with God as taught through Buddhism. And, this scripture should prove that we also have God within if we but would recognize, or believe, it.

People (many evangelists) have taken these words and turned more people off God than can be imagined. Some people should just shut up, but of course they will not because of this scripture. So, perhaps it's up to the rest of the people to know when some minister, priest, tv evangelist or whatever, is NOT speaking from this loving God within, and simply pass them by. It is just maddening when so many fundamentalists are shouting, but all anyone hears is what they are. In other words, "What you are speaks so loudly that I can't hear what you're saying." (not you! but some).

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...on second thought, never mind my comments, but -- people -- read for yourselves these verses and come to your own conclusion as to whether there is one or two, or three, or more, gods. or, does that even matter?

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Sunlove,

I must admit I am a bit puzzled. I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. Could you put it just a little plainer for me, please?

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Momma Angel wrote:

I consider divine intervention to be like when someone prays for God to intervene and He does. That's an exercise of my free will asking Him for help.

And one nation under God? Oh yes, it's true. We are all under God. Some just choose not to believe it, but the whole world is under God, as He created us.

I saw April in the big brother house pray for God's intervention. She was kneeling by the toilet and crying. It was quite moving. Then she prayed to God to help her win the veto competition--she even stuck a religious object down her bra to inspire devine intervention. She lost and immediately grabbed the object from her bra, tossed it aside, and angrily retorted, "well that didn't do any good."

We are not praying to the "GOD OF LIBERTY" when we recite the pledge. We are pledging our allegiance to the FLAG of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. It is a nation that is incapable of undergoing division. (Well, the civil war was unsuccessful, so the chances of another civil war to divide the country are somewhat remote, but the people experience extreme division in our politics.) It is a nation "with liberty and justice for all." Well, not ALL. Apparently this is a nation for the religious people who believe we are "under God" and because they force a governmentally-sanctioned pledge honoring God on the non-religious.

Where's the liberty and justice for all? It is hypocritical for the people who pray to the "God of LIBERTY," to force the non-religious people to tolerate the imposition of religious beliefs into our national pledge.

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Debra_Law wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
I consider divine intervention to be like when someone prays for God to intervene and He does. That's an exercise of my free will asking Him for help.

And one nation under God? Oh yes, it's true. We are all under God. Some just choose not to believe it, but the whole world is under God, as He created us.

I saw April in the big brother house pray for God's intervention. She was kneeling by the toilet and crying. It was quite moving. Then she prayed to God to help her win the veto competition--she even stuck a religious object down her bra to inspire devine intervention. She lost and immediately grabbed the object from her bra, tossed it aside, and angrily retorted, "well that didn't do any good."

We are not praying to the "GOD OF LIBERTY" when we recite the pledge. We are pledging our allegiance to the FLAG of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. It is a nation that is incapable of undergoing division. (Well, the civil war was unsuccessful, so the chances of another civil war to divide the country are somewhat remote, but the people experience extreme division in our politics.) It is a nation "with liberty and justice for all." Well, not ALL. Apparently this is a nation for the religious people who believe we are "under God" and because they force a governmentally-sanctioned pledge honoring God on the non-religious.

Where's the liberty and justice for all? It is hypocritical for the people who pray to the "God of LIBERTY," to force the non-religious people to tolerate the imposition of religious beliefs into our national pledge.

Perhaps you should take it up with the ones that wrote it in the first place?

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Under God With Liberty

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