Rightwing Liars Falsely Claim 2,000 NO School Buses Sat Idle

FreeDuck wrote:

Easy now, dragon's been pretty polite about it. It's not that important of a point is it? Whether or not the WSJ is sensationalistic?

you all spoke to soon, my patience had just run out...sorry Sad

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FreeDuck wrote:

Now what about those buses. 600 buses, 100,000 people. How much time would it take to get them all to higher ground?

According to the Calgary school district, the maximum seating capacity for their school/charter buses is 66-72 people.

However, for safety reason they advocate fewer.

I would guess Calgary's buses are similar to New Orleans'.

In a sudden emergency situation, it would seem difficult to exceed 40 people per bus, since families would going together and there would be a certain number of seats on the end where nobody would want to occupy, since you would be surrounded by a family you wouldn't know.

600 buses times 40 people per bus would be 24,000 people per trip. Let's call it 25,000 to make the math easier.

So it would take the entire fleet of school buses four trips to evacuate 100,000. Assuming they had someplace to put them. If they did, it sounds quite possible. Assuming this place is within an hour's drive, which I am sure the Superdome is for any part of New Orleans, (there was no gridlock, reportedly), it would be an hour to load the bus, two hours to the Superdome and back.

If everything went perfectly, (unlikely), the evacuation could have taken 12 hours.

If everyone was seated in the Lousiana Superdome, which I believe does have 100,000 seating capacity, it would be doable. However, you would need organization to make sure everyone was seated in order, with no seats left over. I don't think the Lousiana Superdome is the answer for the full 100,000, or anywhere near it.

Which brings up the question-where else could the buses drive the people to?

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Yeah, I was going to assume 50 would fit but that doesn't quite take into account the heaviness of adults and their belongings.

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I am really tired of this head on a pin rationalization that the WSJ "tries to be sensational" It is simply not a fact that WSJ exaggerates or includes lurid details in order to garner interest. The example cited indicates this. There was nothing lurid or exaggerated.

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FreeDuck wrote:

Yeah, I was going to assume 50 would fit but that doesn't quite take into account the heaviness of adults and their belongings.

As it was, the 30,000 that made it were unmanangeable. Many of those people would be dead now if they hadn't been provided that shelter. Nagin's shaking down everyone at the door was a good move.

On another forum, I called Nagin's actions "criminal" for his failure to get people out. As more facts come in, it appears to me that Nagin did a pretty good job with the hand he was dealt.

On the bus issue, we are assuming the bus drivers would sacrifice their ass to help the less fortunate. Most of the bus drivers would have at least enough assets to get out of the city.

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Don't forget also that the people who need to leave will not be spread evenly throughout the city. If you are going to call out the schoolbuses, it would seem reasonable that they would be picking people up at schools, since there is likely one near everybody's house. Give the bus driver an hour to load the bus before he heads to shelter, (wherever that is), and two hours to return, we are stuck with the fact that some buses will be arriving at the shelter with only 10 or 15 people, while some buses will be leaving schoolyards with 80 or 100 people left behind, having to wait another 3 hours for the bus to return.

They wouldn't have had the time to set up a system to send buses to the schools where there are more people. That would beyond a reasonable expectation.

Add to the fact that alarms had been set off about storms in New Orleans before, and a certain percentage of people are not going to take them seriously. Just a few weeks before, Hurrican Dennis had this big buildup, and it turned out to be much, much less than they predicted.

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There has been some talk about an evacuation plan that wasn't followed. I haven't seen any details why it was not, but it wouldn't surprise me that it was unworkable.

Before despairing that New Orleans' evacuation plan was unworkable, people shold check their own town or city to see if it has an evacuation plan which is workable or not. Don't be surprised if it doesn't.

Some years ago, the New York Times ran an article checking out the evacuation plan for a large New York City neighborhood-I think it was Flushing. Population about 200,000 or so. The evacuation plan was not about flood, but possible nuclear war-but the same principles apply.

The Civil Defense evacuation plan called for Flushing to be evacuated to this tiny town in the Catskills. Population about 15,000. When the Times went up there to see about preparation, nobody up there had any idea they were the place where Flushing, New York was supposed to be evacuated to. They had no plan, they had no facilities. They did not have any buildings in the town capable of holding anywhere near 200.000 people.

In other words, the evacuation plan was a joke. If you live in a sizable town or city, don't be surprised if your evacuation plan isn't a joke as well.

Perhaps, considering it's vulnerable position, New Orleans should have paid more attention to it's evacuation plan. Nevertheless, I'll bet few large places, let alone a world-famous city, have satisfactory plans.

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Who cares if it was 2000 or 2. The point is that they sat there when they could have been used.

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They were used before the storm. That's how all those people got to the superdome.

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KW, I would concur wholeheartedly with what you are saying. While people have been quick to blame government for not getting people out, I keep wondering how we can reasonably expect government to do so.

Let me put it this way. When evacuating a large city, such as NO, where do you send people? What nearby locality is ever really ready to handle an influx of people from a city the size of NO? I think that all concerned did a good job of getting as many out of harm's way as they did. And let's face it, many of those who stayed (how many exactly will never be known for sure) did so of their own free will. I would guess that a decent percentage of those who were unable to leave due to not having transportation would have chosen to stay even if transport had been provided. That is just the nature of many people.

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I agree with that, CR.

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Bella Dea wrote:

Who cares if it was 2000 or 2. The point is that they sat there when they could have been used.

Hmmm...really? The buses drive themselves then, I assume?

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I didn't and still don't see you doing anything but posting complaints on A2K so I guess you can't really talk about a lack of volunteers, now can you? I don't really think that it would have mattered if someone had a CDL or chauffers licence or not if the lives of thousands of people depended on it.

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For the record about the buses running:

Quote:

Mayor Nagin issues mandatory evacuation for New Orleans
As of 9:30 a.m., Mayor Nagin has issued a mandatory evacuation for New Orleans.

The Superdome has been opened for people with special needs and as a shelter of last resort. Residents should call (504) 568-3200 to reserve space in this shelter.

The city has set up ten pickup areas to take people to emergency shelters. RTA buses will be picking up citizens for free and take them to these shelters. The number to call for pickup areas is 1-800-469-4828.

The pickup locations are
# McMain High: 5712 S Claiborne Ave New Orleans, LA 70125

# Rabouin High:727 Carondelet St New Orleans, LA 70130

# Mondy George O Elementary: 2327 Philip St New Orleans, LA 70113

# O.P. Walker: 2832 General Meyer Ave New Orleans, LA 70114

# Abramson: 5552 Read Blvd New Orleans, LA 70127

# S.T. Reed : 5316 Michoud Blvd New Orleans, LA 70129

# Sylvain Williams: 3127 Martin L. King Blvd. New Orleans, LA. 70125

# Augustine Middle:425 S. Broad St. New Orleans, LA. 70119

# Warren Easton: 3039 Higgins Blvd. New Orleans, LA. 70126

# MLK Jr. Elementary: 1617 Caffin Avenue New Orleans, LA 70117

# N.O. Mission, address not available at time of publish.

# Mondy Center, address not available at time of publish.

# William Franz , address not available at time of publish.

Residents are asked to bring food for 3-5 days, pillows, blankets, and any other supplies needed.

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08_28.html#074549

Just to clear that up.

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Bella Dea wrote:

I didn't and still don't see you doing anything but posting complaints on A2K so I guess you can't really talk about a lack of volunteers, now can you? I don't really think that it would have mattered if someone had a CDL or chauffers licence or not if the lives of thousands of people depended on it.

Ignoring your personal attack, I suppose Nagin could have recruited 600 senior citizens to drive the buses as volunteers. Of course, if one of the unlicensed, untrained drivers drove 50 people into Lake Ponchartrain, you would be the first to want to charge Nagin with homicide! You are blowing smoke. If Nagin had an unlimited budget, he could have bought a few crusie ships and had them anchored in the port, and ready to go. You are not dealing in reality.

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Chrissee wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
I didn't and still don't see you doing anything but posting complaints on A2K so I guess you can't really talk about a lack of volunteers, now can you? I don't really think that it would have mattered if someone had a CDL or chauffers licence or not if the lives of thousands of people depended on it.

Ignoring your personal attack, I suppose Nagin could have recruited 600 senior citizens to drive the buses as volunteers. Of course, if one of the unlicensed, untrained drivers drove 50 people into Lake Ponchartrain, you would be the first to want to charge Nagin with homicide! You are blowing smoke. If Nagin had an unlimited budget, he could have bought a few crusie ships and had them anchored in the port, and ready to go. You are not dealing in reality.

Crikey, I can't believe this is worthy of argument. The buses ran. THE BUSES RAN. But they can't run during the storm, so they were parked and subsequently flooded. Therefore, they couldn't be used for post-storm evacuation.

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You never deal in reality so we will get along just fine.

And I'd have done well to have ignored the comment you made to me which just smacked of sarcasm.

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Chrissee wrote:

Of course, if one of the unlicensed, untrained drivers drove 50 people into Lake Ponchartrain, you would be the first to want to charge Nagin with homicide!

Just like you'd be the first to blame Bush. You are such a hypocrite.

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CoastalRat wrote:

KW, I would concur wholeheartedly with what you are saying. While people have been quick to blame government for not getting people out, I keep wondering how we can reasonably expect government to do so.

Let me put it this way. When evacuating a large city, such as NO, where do you send people? What nearby locality is ever really ready to handle an influx of people from a city the size of NO? I think that all concerned did a good job of getting as many out of harm's way as they did. And let's face it, many of those who stayed (how many exactly will never be known for sure) did so of their own free will. I would guess that a decent percentage of those who were unable to leave due to not having transportation would have chosen to stay even if transport had been provided. That is just the nature of many people.

Well, CR, even a broken clock is right twice a day Smile

In fact, statistics show that about 25% refuse to evacuate voluntarily, it appears that number was lower due to the enormity of the Katrina threat. My best guess is that 10-20% stayed of their won volition. Obviously, the vast majority of the 35,000 who packed the Superdome would have preferred to leave the city.

Hindsight is 20/20 but I have wondered why they didn't set aside LSU's Arena as a shelter. Maybe some with very limited funds could have made it there i.e. a car and a tank of gas.

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Bella, you must learn to ignore Chrissee. She politely ignores what she calls your personal attack but she is quick to personally make attacks of her own. Oh, and did you know that she is always right? Well, now you do.

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Rightwing Liars Falsely Claim 2,000 NO School Buses Sat Idle

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