1
   

Politics as usual.

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 04:21 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
In other words, is it actually GWB that is dividing the country or is it just the opposing deep held beliefs held by the people (such as anti/pro war. anti/pro abortion, different ideas of freedom of religion) that have come to ahead at this particular time with no room for compromise? No matter how often one screams about GWB being divisive, I see no evidence what so ever that they are doing anything more than the same.

I didnt realise I was screaming.

(Isnt that choice of words another, probably subconscious, purveyor of division? Somebody makes an, I think, reflective enough criticism of Bush or his administration or party, and yet its instinctively categorised as screaming, as if all stringent criticism must by definition be unreasonable? Can you think of a way in which someone would make an elaborate argument against Bush and yet not be seen by you as just screaming and blaming?)

Of course there are opposing deeply held beliefs, especially in America (or, say, the Balkans of course, but I was primarily comparing with Western Europe here), and that is part of the country's division. Part of those unusually stark divisions in turn I think are the result, over time, of the way the political system is structured. That is what I devoted five lengthy paragraphs in my post to, after all.

However, next to that, IMO at least, there is the role of GWB, not as a person, but as the implementor of a specific set of rhetorics and political behaviours. It is not either / or, and I dont see why it should be; its both. Yes, the division is a question of deeply held opposing beliefs, and yes there have been specific political behaviours that have escalated their expression.

How? I think in the middle of my post I've listed some specific ways. Its not only that GWB gets all the country's opposing affinities (or even just the psycholigical need for oppositions) projected onto him, though you're right that that most certainly happens plenty too (just look at Amigo here). His administration has also, quite deliberately, fanned the dvision of the country through a comparatively militant programme and a conscious choice of rhetorics and approach to debate.

Clinton, whether for better or for worse, repeatedly took a distinct distance from his party's partisan passions, actually pioneering policies that went right against its grains (welfare reform - sure went against my grain). He also took advantage of his skills as a great communicator, like Reagan before him, to appeal way beyond his party's base. Bush's team on the other hand has skirted through two relatively narrow election victories primarily by mobilising his party's base against the other half of the country. Has done so through both tone and, once elected a first time, a militant programme even to US standards.

I am not blaming it all on Bush, let alone that I'm screaming about it. I do think there's a shortlist of specific things I think his team did was crucial to escalating division in the US, in my previous post.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 08:01 am
nimh wrote:
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
In other words, is it actually GWB that is dividing the country or is it just the opposing deep held beliefs held by the people (such as anti/pro war. anti/pro abortion, different ideas of freedom of religion) that have come to ahead at this particular time with no room for compromise? No matter how often one screams about GWB being divisive, I see no evidence what so ever that they are doing anything more than the same.

I didnt realise I was screaming.


Sorry nimh, that wasn't directed specifically at you. I didn't mean to imply you were screaming. I meant it in a more general sense.

In your first post nimh wrote:
Having a two-party system that automatically conditions people to express allegiance to one party, the other, or none, leaves little experience with a multipolar world view.

The two parties' eternal quest for the defeat of the other (there's no other way to power but through the defeat of 'the other side', coalition government and its requirement of compromises doesn't exist) necessitates both sides to every four years close ranks, sideline dissent.

In a country as big as America, in politics as money-suffused as America's, victory can no longer be reached just through grassroots activism and quality platforms. You need a well-oiled, centralised, controlled machine of a party campaign. Critical reflection and intra-party discussion then become dangerous kinks in the machine, and have to be whipped into submission and conformation.


An interesting way of expressing that. The only way to be in power is to defeat the other party. It kind of makes it ingrained in the system.

We need a multi-party system, though, to help keep things in balance. Is more legitimate 3rd parties the answer? Somebody to force the Pubs/Dems to actually drop some of the propaganda and start focusing on solutions. The problem I have had with 3rd parties in the past is that their focus is to narrow. If they were to expand their views and get a little more mainstream their message might get a little watered down, but it could also put them into contention and at least force people to start thinking a bit more.

nimh wrote:
All in all, there is less need and fewer rewards for cautious compromise, more of a bonus for messianism. Reagan and Roosevelt, who made a strong personal, ideological stamp on the country, are held in high esteem, compromisers like Ford and Clinton are popular or impopular, but rarely considered great presidents.



The backlash of this could be interesting to see as the country becomes more and more polarized. I think we are starting to see some of it now. There is beginning to be a bit of in fighting even within the respective groups. Radical Christians (notice the word radical which is where I place the emphasis) give moderate christians a bad name as well as the conservative right as a whole. Those that squawk loudest are the ones that get heard. But I don't feel they represent me in a good light. Same thing with some of the extremes on the left.

nimh wrote:
But it also allows partisans to filter their news intake closely according to ideological news. Hear only what they want to hear, find confirmation of their views and prejudices again and again. Handpick channels of information that are guaranteed to tell you what everybody else in your camp hears, and nothing else. A kind of Big-Brother by popular demand.


I agree with you whole heartedly on this. This site is a perfect example. Many articles are discredited merely upon seeing where the article is from no matter how much good information is in there. I am a firm believer in looking at both sides which is one of the reasons I do more reading in the politics forum than writing. There is some really really good info that gets lost among all the bickering and name calling.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 08:07 am
owl wrote:
The thread started with a plea for unity and just followed the usual sinking into a morass.


Don't give up yet... there is still hope.

owl wrote:
The underlying problems as I see them are a real belief in lying and cheating as the best way to accomplish a goal and a persistent resistance to practice any type of tolerance for the opposing view. Sadly both these practices are destroying this country.


Above an beyond that, it is getting real difficult to discern the truth from the lies. As nimh touched on earlier, with all of the news outlets out there you have the ability to pick and choose the truth you want to hear.

owl wrote:
ps thanks for a good thread.


Come on back and join in the discussion.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 08:38 am
(Appreciating nimh's posts -- as of now, can't think of anything to add.)
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 08:49 am
Same here. Nimh has said what I was going to say about the political divisions. Still reading along...
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 11:23 am
Amigo wrote:
No I lose. I fail to get you to try to take a closer look. That's all weve had in trying to stop Bush from f**king the country up. Losses. Because the truth has become partisan and partsianship is bad.


then why are you complaining so bitterly about "the middle" ??

at least for myself, and as i've already said to you, i get it.

and what you aren't seeing is that most of the people who are going to agree with you already do. a few more may come along, but for the most part, you are there.

+/- 60% of the country agrees with you now. the core of bush's supporters never will, even if you take them by the back of the neck and rub their faces in the wmd-less sands of iraq.

it's what they believe bush will do for them on the social stuff that keeps them sucking up;

no abortions, no gay marriage, a prayer on every lip and no boobies on t.v, no taxes for godless, liberal public schools, the goal of nothing but child friendly entertainment(even for adults).... have as many wars as you want as long as it's "one nation UNDER GOD!!!"

you may want to remember that tipper gore helped quite a bit to get that ball rolling, btw.

and the corporations you complain about so much make out, no matter who the president is. some are just more friendly than others. i don't like the corporate greed freaks either, but they are to some extent a necessary evil. it's the lack of government guidelines that does the most to let 'em run wild.

you can thank the democratic party for a lot of the success that the right wing has had. they are complicit by their relative silence.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 03:18 pm
A partisian is a strong supporter of a faction. A fanatic is a unconditional supporter of a faction. I don't have any loyalty to any political party my loyalty is to the constitution. The neo-cons are a faction. I would like to see any party in power other then this extreme right wing faction.

How many lies and incompetence have come out of this radical neo-con faction of the right wing? But if I disagree with them they call me and you a partisian.

Look up the word credibility gap. How much of this is responsible for the "Partisianship" the current adminisration is claiming any party that disagrees with them is guilty of. Are we actually being partisian or are we being accused of being partisian by a conservative faction to actually make us partisian.

When Americans of all parties ask why Bush made Brown head of F.E.M.A. we are being partisian.

How much bipartisianship was practiced by Bush in deciding Brown should head F.E.M.A.?

How much bipartisianship was practiced when we picked a U.N. ambassador.

Partisian; Loyalty to a faction.

Credibility gap; 1.a disparity between a statement and the true facts 2. inability to have one's truthfulness or honesty accepted.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 03:40 pm
yep. the current administration and rnc leadership along with it's attendant cogs in the noise machine are really quite good at the word game.

but, as the sages have said, actions speak louder than words. so do results.

which is why i'm saying to you, the bush admin is hanging itself without much need for the dems to do anything but keep feeding out the rope.

that leaves a lot of time for the them, or any other party or unpolished gems, to come up with a fresh vision and plan for the future. it's a much more positive path than continuing to exclaim that bush lied, or trumped up war in iraq or whatever.

instead of wasting time on a stolen election, let's spend that time on pressuring the whosits to make laws and policies that make that a hell of a lot harder to do or whatever.

bush isn't going anywhere right now and a lot can change, be changed in 3 1/2 years.

simone, amigo ?
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 03:57 pm
Yes, I see Don't tread. Your right. Simone, Senor tread.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 04:05 pm
See what a talented analyst can do?

'Course, it takes someone willing to listen, and kudos to Amigo for that, too.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 04:52 pm
Don't tread, Every time I'm getting good you come in with your smooth talking rationalism making me look like a goof. The chicks oohhh at your "talented analyst" and I get a pat on the head for listening. One of these day Amigo's gonna say something great. You'll see. (I called sozobe a chick, That could be bad)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 04:59 pm
Hee hee...!

I'm a sucker for rationalism and logic... but that's just me...
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 05:09 pm
Amigo wrote:
One of these day Amigo's gonna say something great. You'll see.


don't think you haven't already, dude. keep goin'. Cool
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 05:13 pm
sozobe wrote:
Hee hee...!

I'm a sucker for rationalism and logic... but that's just me...



<blushing...blushing>

:wink:
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 05:40 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Amigo wrote:
One of these day Amigo's gonna say something great. You'll see.


don't think you haven't already, dude. keep goin'. Cool


Where?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 05:43 pm
nimh wrote:
Quote:
A particularly strong (and IMO, pernicious) effect has been had by the targeted discrediting of mainstream journalism. A real or perceived bias in the standard news media has triggered (or been used to create) a parallel, conservative news space. The problem here IMO is not, per se, that there is a news station with a far-right slant alongside to one with a [mainstream/liberal] slant. It's that those who rail against the "MSM" have targeted the notion of there being a mainstream journalism as well as the mainstream media themselves.

It's not just the NYT or the WaPo that was "exposed", but the entire concept of there being a kind of 'straight' news reporting, focused on narrating the basic facts and events of a story. All of that so-called straight news, say the conservative critics, all has a bias too, so whats the difference - and on Fox, the Washington Times or talk radio proceed to mix up opinions, facts, ideological fervour and news reporting in a kind of propagandistic brew.


This is a meaty subject area, and there are lots of particular angles where one could jump in and begin discussion. Let me pick this one above, but with a quick little bit preceding on something more general.

We make a mistake, or at least are in grave danger of making a mistake, if we begin with the uninspected assumption that this period of time is just like any other period of time in American politics - that there is nothing much going on in the present which we haven't seen before and therefore anyone getting excited is merely falling prey to some personal or group hysteria. A related or similar assumption, which prudence ought to tell us is potentially delusional and dangerously so, is that the American system of governance is so robust and so near perfection that nothing can go seriously wrong. One can find numerous quotes from earlier periods and other great nations which were based on similar assumptions. And then, the **** hit the fan. Anatol Lieven's recent book on American Nationalism is a bright and sobering look at such assumptions interview here

What Nimh alludes to in the two paragraphs quoted above constitutes, for me, the most dangerous modern phenomenon in US politics...the creation of an alternate media system (TV, radio, internet, publishing, newspapers - along with the design/adaptation of PR/propaganda techniques, and the training and provision of individuals to work within this alternate media system). There are two seminal works on this new arrival to the US political scene, and both are required reading for anyone who wants to get a thorough understanding of just what is going on and how profound are the risks to democracy...Eric Alterman's "What Liberal Media?" and David Brock's "The Republican Noise Machine." (There are others as well, but these two books are both marked by top quality journalism). My signature down below quotes Gingrich on this strategy. Believe him.

This alternate media system has no intention of forwarding either an objective or a balanced commentary on the political scene. Their mission statements are often quite explicit on what it is they are going to pass on to you, the reader - conservative views, conservative ideology. And they have a justification/rationale for proceding in such a partisan ideological manner...they say (and some of their principals believe though many do not) that the Mainstream Media is overwhelmingly leftist in membership and ideological coverage/commentary. Thus, the conservative media are merely bringing about a balance.

When the MSM folks argue that they strive for objectivity and to be free of partisan bias, the response from this conservative structure (and those who support it...eg, tico here has voiced exactly what follows) is that both are equally biased but that the conservative media possesses superior integrity on the basis that it admits it is biased while the MSM either merely deludes itself or tries to delude its readers.

Of course, if the goal of a commentary or a commentary medium is, at its most basic, to forward an ideology, then the qualities we look to in a free and independent media - accuracy and truthfulness and data/context as fully fleshed out as possible - fall junior to the forwarding of ideology and support of a single party.

So two questions become paramount...is the MSM markedly or profoundly or even measurably biased towards the Democratic party and to Democratic ideology? Alterman's book addresses exactly this question. For example, if the thesis of pervasive liberal bias in the MSM were true, then one could predict, for example, that the preponderance of newspaper editorials would come out in support of Democratic presidential candidates. Yet over the last thirty years, the converse has actually been the case. If such a bias were so, then Democrat politicians would be relatively free from criticism and attack, and yet Alterman's research on how, for example, Clinton's presidency was covered shows that assumption of bias which would let Democrats off the hook to be false. There's much else in the book, carefully researched and richly cited, and I can recommend few books more than this one.

The second question...is this alternate conservative media actually engaged in such a singular (and even covert) purpose. On this question, Brock's book is particularly valuable. All (or something very close to all) of the major examples of this new conservative media are originated by or funded by a small group of very wealthy extreme conservative activists. They've been busy at this task for three decades. They've been effective. Like Ailes at Fox, they aren't interested in educating the public, but rather in forwarding what is truly a form of propaganda.

Of course, such a media machine is less dangerous when the party it supports is out of power. But when its favored party is in power, then it operates exactly as Goering's media machine, or Pravada in the USSR, or China's media operates...as a state propaganda organ.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 05:52 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Amigo wrote:
One of these day Amigo's gonna say something great. You'll see.


don't think you haven't already, dude. keep goin'. Cool


Where?


ever the nurturer, eh, tico ? Laughing

well, this, for one;

Amigo wrote:

they are...afraid the look like a "whacko". I was a "whacko" when I said you couldn't enrich uranium with the tubes they were starting a war with on Fox news.

Am I a "whacko" for saying it today? NO. Because it's true. Like it was true then.


pretty on target there.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 06:03 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Amigo wrote:
One of these day Amigo's gonna say something great. You'll see.


don't think you haven't already, dude. keep goin'. Cool


Where?
Have you been to the "Talk like caveman thread"
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 06:06 pm
In the interests of keeping this thread on topic, I'll refrain from responding. Cool
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 06:07 pm
Amigo wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Amigo wrote:
One of these day Amigo's gonna say something great. You'll see.


don't think you haven't already, dude. keep goin'. Cool


Where?
Have you been to the "Talk like caveman thread"


Yes. Perhaps it's rubbing off.
0 Replies
 
 

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