Looters of N.O.

I am now thoroughly mixed up about what who said on which thread..
but I seem to notice looters and people shooting helicopters in the same sentence. I distinguish these myself.

On looting, I wrote somewhere early on that I am not for it. (The place next to our office was looted in the LA mess in the early nineties - I always forget if it was '91 or '92) about 45 minutes after we decided we'd better call it a day and drive home. But... I, at least at the beginning of this week, had this entirely dismal view in my mental scenario on how the hurricane could play out and much of that has come true. And I saw the looting for tennis shoes as tragi-comic in that it was futile and sad, but still a kind of life pulse.

I stopped with that poetic sort of view when I saw the thing about the forklift, or was it a bulldozer.

Because, a couple of blocks of trouble is one thing and real civil disorder is another. Still, I would have done something else, if I was the law, other than shoot the forklift operator with real bullets.

Shooting at rescue helicopters? Then I wouldn't be nice, I'd have taken them out, though, you know me, I would have shot at the knees - or tear gas, or... Yeah, I know, easy to say.

Alternately, I am no fan of a world of complete order.... certainly since I finished reading Corelli's Mandolin this week, but I wasn't before that either.

Further thoughts -
many companies and agencies aren't/weren't letting in people to rescue because of liability reasons as well as the common sense of not putting rescuers at risk. I understand all that. Would that they had backup at the time.

But mostly I admire the doctors and nurses at Charity Hospital, who seem to me to be real stalwart folks. I think the Mayor is tip top, whether or not he swore and cried.

I am hearing now that Bush cut funding for levees, floodgates and pumping stations for New Orleans that the governor requested and was denied.To bad there is no oil in New Orleans.The levees would be sky high.

Long story on that. I have recent links for how Bush did, sadly. But I gather there is some history to share on that with other presidents.

And then, the levees are not built to withstand 4, much less 5...

I've stopped compiling links. There is blame aplenty,
including, as Molly Ivins' column said, for the population, for not caring enough to follow the politics.
http://www.tracypress.com/voice/2005-09-02-ivins.php
Molly Ivins on NO

Blame casting is a thicket. I'm all for compiling reasons for what to do next.

What I predict instead is a defensive mode from all.

Yes, indeed, kicky. A class act, that was.

So if you were a judge, you'd give the same sentence to the guy who loots a TV as the guy who loots the pensions of thousands of people for millions of dollars? 175 years behind bars seems to me like a pretty harsh sentence for stealing a TV.

Yeah, they are both stealing, but there are degrees of wrongdoing, don't you agree? It's not as simple as "it's the same ****". All theft is not of the same moral level, just as all murder is not of the same moral level. Why else would we have different sentences and distinctions like felonies and misdemeanors?

It WAS, indeed, an extremely class act...


However, infrastructure in NYC, except at ground zero, pretty much remained.

Food and water was easily obtainable, a far smaller number of people were homeless, and, Manhattan being what it is, most folk were either reasonably well to do, and had some resources, or lived elsewhere (millions commute into Manhattan every day).


This is far different. The scale is utterly different. So many have lost everything - there is no fresh water or food for many - many are very poor folk with few resources, as I understand it.

I am also sure that many, many stories of great courage and altruism will be told later about this disaster, too.

Except for food and water, I do not think this excuses looting - (if I were thirsty and hungry, I would be taking water bottles and food, too) and the IDEA of shooting at rescue helicopters is appalling to me - not to mention the accounts of rape and personal violence.

However, I really do not think comparisons with NYC are very fair.

LA times

Actually, this is an area in which they swim in petroleum--pun intended, if you've seen the pictures with the chemical sheen on the water. It's just that the flooding which hurts people doesn't necessarily hurt refineries. There's no good, reliable reports coming out about how the refineries are affected--just vague, occasional references.

Oil tankers pull up to the seaward (eastern) shore next to Lake Pontchartrain, and unload their oil into tank farms. From there, river barges fill up, and take it to the refineries in the river corridor between Baton Rouge and New Orleans. The area if full of chemical plants, too, which use refinery products. To get from Lake Pontchartrain to the river, the barges use the canals which run through the city, principally the 17th Street canal, which is where the levee first broke.

As i say, it can't be determined from what i've seen in the news how the refineries were affected. A dime to a dollar, though, that as soon as nobody's looking, again, they do all they can to get the barges moving through the canals again, without reference to the human condition.

Setanta
From what I have heard from the problem with the refineries is twofold. First and foremost electrical power must be restored. And in addition the people who man the refineries located and when found housed. The representative of Entergy on TV stated that the repair of the power grid is being impacted by the lawlessness. They will not send people into harms way.

I don't blame them for that. It will continue to be a problem for getting petroleum to the refineries that the 17th Street canal was the site of the collapse of a levee, as well. I can't say what success they will enjoy in re-routing barges bound for the refineries. I still rather suspect that more will be accomplished, and more quickly, to get the refineries running than to assure the safety and comfort of poor people in the cities.

I love New Orleans. Though now deaf, one honors the birthplace of Jazz. The food and vivacity of the Cresent City were a joy to behold. It always seemed to be just a little bit more free than other places. That was at least partially because the City was so tolerant of intoxication and sleazy ways. Poverty was a tradition reaching far back into its history.

Located at the mouth of the Mississippi River, New Orleans was and remains one of the most important strategic sites in North America. It was to obtain New Orleans that Jefferson made the Louisiana Purchase. The Mississippi has always been a major trade artery carrying goods up and down the center of the Continent. Farmers from the mid-west depend on the river to carry their crops to the hungry all over the world. People have lately learned to appreciate how important New Orleans, and the surrounding Gulf ports are to American transportation, and economic security.

People along the banks of the Mississippi have long known that Old Man River has a cantankerous side. The River doesn't keep to it's banks, but from time to time changes course without regard to human comfort. When the snows melt and heavy rains fall in distant mountain ranges, the River can rise overnight. Homes, farms, and businesses might be flooded for days, or washed away in a moment. Nowhere on the River has historically been more at risk than New Orleans. The Delta passages are constantly changing, and silt from the entire Continent is laid down raising the levels of the dry land. Left alone, the Mississippi has always constituted a danger to those who live along it, and the course of the River would decades ago have left old New Orleans miles from the River itself.

Enter the Army Corps of Engineers ordered to "tame" the River and insure that New Orleans would remain viable. The Corps of Engineers labored mightily, and have done as well as any human agency might to preserve the human progress from the mouth of the Missouri to the Gulf. In the end, as almost everyone knew, the attempt to permanently control the River was doomed to failure. New Orleans, always situated on low ground, is now more than six feet below water level and rhas emained "dry" only so long as the dykes held fast. People have known for generations that eventually a major hurricane would destroy the levees, and the New Orleans would be flooded. Extensive flooding of New Orleans could only result in major property loss, and the deaths of a sizable percentage of those still in the City at the time of the flood. No one ever wanted to believe that disaster would happen while they personally were involved. That's a very human way of avoiding looking directly at the obvious. We will continue to squander petroleum until the last pint has been drawn from the earth, and then wonder why no one foresaw the result. The world watched as the storm clouds of the Second World War gathered, and then were "surprised when their personal lives were affected. Humans.

So now we have to deal with the aftermath of a major natural disaster. In earlier times there would have been very little outside help, the property damage would have been much worse, and many more lives would have been lost when only a small fraction of the population was evacuated. State and National governments are moving to relieve the suffering, but they must overcome huge obstacles. Roads and waterways are damaged, electrical and telephone lines broken, and local infrastructure so badly damaged that it can not effectively deal with the problems. It takes time to gather supplies, determine where they are most needed, and then to transport them. No prior planning could foresee the extent of the damage, nor where most of the damage would lie. It does no good whatsoever to "blame" the State or national government for delay, they are doing what they can in the best way they know how. They will inevitably make mistakes, and some people may even die as a result.

What we are faced with are two primary problems. What can/should be done in the short term to minimize the loss of lives and property. Already government and private parties are rushing survival supplies to the area, and trying to evacuate the 100,000, or so, people to safer ground. How many people can a single bus carry out of the danger zone? 50? That would take 5,000 bus trips, and how many buses are available for evacuation? How soon can the roads be repaired so that large convoys of buses can make daily(?) round trips to and from New Orleans. Each of the buses will need diesel fuel, and this at a time when fuel is both scarce and frightfully expensive. The further a bus has to travel, the more expensive it is. If the evacuation is any distance at all, the refugee's needs will have to be supplied in small localities unequipped to handle the thousands of needy.

Where is "safer ground"? The refugees presumably have nothing left, so their care and survival has to be provided for somewhere. Where? Filling the Superdome is at best a very temporary measure. Are we going to have to build and staff large refugee camps like those in Africa, or Palestine? To leave sanctuary, the refugees will need to find jobs, and their competition to find work will lower wages and embitter the locals who have "opened their doors to the needy". What area is capable of providing for the immediate needs of the refugees and later will be able to help them back into a productive life? Remember the further the area the more ruinously expensive relocation would be, and those areas near the Gulf are also devastated and helpless themselves.

By all reports law has become moot in New Orleans, and civilization is reverting to anarchy. Anarchy must be avoided it we are to salvage anything from a difficult situation. Shooting looters isn't about money, or even the sanctity of property, its about the rule of law that is the foundation for civilized behavior. It may shock some how thin the veneer of civilization is, but just below the surface in most of us lurks a bit of the selfish and cruel barbarian. Faced with apparent chaos, people drop their masks and begin to grab with both hands. What is stolen is less important than that our greed and self must be catered to. Unleashed from law and civilization murder, rape, and mayhem are just as common as theft. Those who are the least able to protect themselves, and their property, are the preferred victims to the savage. Civilization has to be restored, and that has always throughout history required that looters, and others who take advantage of disaster are subject to immediate death. Shoot them, hang them from the nearest lamp pole, or stone them to death is the rule. Will there be injustices? Will some innocents be executed? Will our hearts reach out to the parents of a teenager shot to death as he rummages through the wreckage for a pair of fancy shoes? You bet, but civilization and the rule of law must be maintained or all is lost.

In the long term, policy decisions may be even tougher. Should New Orleans be rebuilt, and if so where? New Orleans is, as mentioned above, one of our most strategically important cities. Many of us have strong sentimental attachments to it. Refugees think of it as their home, and corporations have large investments in New Orleans. A whole lot of folks are going to want to try and restore what was destroyed in the late hurricane. To do so, requires repair of the broken levees and pumping out the flood waters. Repair of the broken dykes is the least of the problems, and the expenditure of the electricity needed to run an army of pumps 24 hours a day for three months would be a severe drain on regional resources and drive up power prices across the nation. This is estimated to take three months. What will remain to be salvaged after 3 months of being under water? Most buildings will have to be destroyed to make them safe and sanitary. The streets and byways will be filled with water-logged debris that will have to be cleared away to make way for rebuilding. This might take another 3 months if pursued diligently and without regard to the cost. How much will it cost us to flatten a whole city and then to carry away the rubble? Add to that the cost of constructing new buildings over the following years. Insurance companies would go broke, the State of Louisiana unable to bear the cost would have to appeal to the Federal Government. Will everyone agree not to whine when the National Debt skyrockets? Will we curtail all other Federal spending so that New Orleans might continue?

Lets say for the sake of argument that sentiment rules and we do rebuild New Orleans to its former glories. What happens the next time a hurricane breaks the dykes and puts New Orleans under 6+ feet of water? Please don't say that it will never happen again, because Mother Nature has a way of dealing with hubris.

My personal choice would be to abandon New Orleans, leave it to the waters as others have been. Rebuild the City, but on higher ground. Rebuild the ports, but provide for the changeable nature of the Mississippi and the amount of silt it deposits every year onto the Delta. This approach will still be extraordinarily expensive, but far less so than trying to restore what is lost. In the meantime, other ports have to increase their capacity to bring crude oil ashore and then to refine it into the fuel we still depend upon. The nation can not afford to dump hundreds of billions of dollars into what would ultimately be a lost cause, when an alternative is available that would be less costly in money, effort, and resources.

Asherman--

Very interesting post. Thank you.

sure there's degrees of wrong doing. 175 years for a t.v. is nutty. just as bizarre as counting swiping a piece of pizza from a kid on the venice walk as a third strike is.

this is going off the rails a little bit. my original comments were in regard to condoning the theft of non-survival items at the same time complaining about corporate rip offs.

in this case, at the core of the philosophy, theft is theft, greed is greed. the motivations are identical even if the scope of the caper is different.

i know it's arguing semantics, but does that make sense to you ?

While i agree with Asherman's excellent analysis and proposal, i rather think that New Orleans will get rebuilt, and that the reasons will be both sentimental and venally political.

I agree with both of you, re the rebuild - the analysis makes sense.

I wouldn't be shooting looters (as such) to kill, re Asherman's prescription. I can understand the decision though.

I find it disturbing that - as the city of New Orleans fills with thousands of metric tons of water, submerging entire neighborhoods and the people within them - the thing that elicits the strongest reaction isn't the hundreds of dead, or the thousands holed up in the Superdome; oh, no, it's the fact that people are taking pants, tv's and food without out paying for them. Apparently, the devastating blow that's been dealt to the Wal-Mart clothing section is the real tragedy here. How the **** did looting become a front page story?

I think thats a rather surface dismissal of a more serious situation than "looting". Those people were marauding bands of rapists and murderers when night fell and some of those bands were organized and had pre-planned this hooliganism before the hurricane. They used it as a cover for this animalistic behavior.

If it was grabbing clothes in a WalMart, it wouldn't have recieved the attention it did.

They actively stopped and slowed a great deal of the relief effort--and for that, they should be shot.

IronLionZion

Lawlessness, car jacking, rapes, roving gangs, shooting at people trying to help, anarchy and mob rule and are a front page story. As it should be. There should be zero tolerance

How did id become a front page story? It became the hall mark of a break down in both government and public order

New York Times


A Delicate Balance Is Undone in a Flash, and a Battered City Waits
By PETER APPLEBOME, CHRISTOPHER DREW, JERE LONGMAN and ANDREW REVKIN
Published: September 4, 2005

New Orleans has always existed in a delicate balance between land and water, chaos and order, black and white, the very rich and the very poor.

This week, bit by bit, that delicate balance came completely undone. Water took over earth when levees broke, putting 80 percent of the city under water. The mix of fatalism and bravado that allowed the city's biggest fear - a killer hurricane - to become the marque drink of Bourbon Street gave way to terror and despair and horrifying spasms of looting and violence. New Orleans became unrecognizable not just physically, but psychologically as well. Faced with a disaster of biblical proportions, everything fell apart, and government was either overmatched or slow to the task.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/national/nationalspecial/04reconstruct.html

I haven't seen any news articles about any pre planned mayham to rape and murder during the hurricane. Would you happen to have a link? I am not saying that it didn't go on, I just doubt it was organized and pre-planned.

Even so the stories that should be getting our attention are ones such as this one:

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/hurricanes_and_tropical_storms