ebrown_p wrote:Lash wrote:The longer we wait, the more progress made--the more likely the terrorists causing mayhem are likely to be killed, captured or just tired. The stronger the Iraqis are to care for themselves, the more experienced the politicians and citizens in Iraq are.
I don't think you have any basis in fact for your argument.
Lash, you have got to be kidding (or completely insane).
No, but I will point out you were the first one to devolve into personal insult.
The facts are this:
- The draft Constitution includes language that no law can "contradict the principles of Islam".
What do you have against Islam? Doesn't it have any decency at all in your eyes? Do note they say the law can't run counter to Islam--a distinction from "the law must follow Islamic law.-
The Constitution if enacted will quite likely lead to the formation of a separate Kurdistan, and a Pro-Iranian Islamic Shiite state (within a very weak Federal framework) both of which are completely the opposite of what we say we want in our view of pro-US democracy.
And? What would you do, impose your will on them? Freedom is the first step. They will tweak it as time passes. Freedom was the goal. The choices they make still reveal self-determination. How long did it take YOUR country to get it's act together?
- The Constitution has been completely rejected by the Sunni negotiators who were part of the team writing it. There is widespread anger toward the Constitution in the Sunni community now being shown in protest (as well as violence).
They would have been killed where they stood if they'd done that under Saddam. I don't know what's wrong with you. I LOVE the sight of them speaking up, voting, protesting, living.
- The US deaths continue steadily.
As happens in war.-
The Iraq deaths contine steadily.
Murdered by terrorists.
- The anti-US insurgency not only continues as strong as ever, the US army is reporting how it is becoming more sophisticated and deadly in its tactics.
Link? I hear conflicting reports.
Now you can talk about hospitals being built and the fact that most of the residents of Bagdad now get 1 or 2 hours of electricity a day.
We are building it better than it was before. It will get better.
But until there is Constitution that is not rejected by a ethnic group, until the violence against Iraqis subsides, and the number of US troops dying daily starts decreasing you have no case that things are getting better.
Wrong. There were groups in the US who didn't like OUR Constitution. The terrorists are still killing people and our troops are dying, but these things do not preclude important political and cultural progress.
You are living in a fantasy world.
You are ill informed.
Do you realize that the act of voing itself runs counter to Islamic tradition and culture? That we got them to the polls signified a drastic departure from the old ways. They are mostly giving lip service to the Islamic law thing. The very way of life they are planning now is unfundy Islamic.
Advances are apparent.
Thomas wrote:Hypothetically, say you conducted a poll among Americans asking: "How would you know if America's involvement in Iraq was victorious?" My guess, based on nothing better than talking to people, is that the specifications would look quite similar to each other, and quite different to what the Bush administration's spin will be when it declares victory and goes home.
I'd be very interested in seeing a poll like that, but I think the results would be different from those that you predict. There are those, after all, who think that victory would mean
converting to Christianity those Muslims who are willing to convert and killing those who aren't.
Thomas wrote:joefromchicago wrote: But Bush hasn't even given us an unrealistic timetable.
No he hasn't. And given that Bush will never give you a realistic timetable written in plain English, I prefer no timetable to a ficticious one co-written by Karl Rove, Paul Wolfowitz, and Grover Norquist.
A fictitious one has an important advantage over a non-existant one: the American people can hold the administration to its promises and judge it by its performance.
Thomas wrote:joefromchicago wrote:Having done so, however, it is duty bound to get the nation out of it, and to explain how it will do so.
I don't share your optimism about this administration letting any duty bind it.
I agree that this administration is unlikely to extricate the nation from this quagmire anytime soon. But let's keep in mind that we're talking about what the president
should do, not what he
will do.
Before this thread drops off the front page, I should reveal who was the author of the quotations that I cited.
It was George W. Bush (five points to DrewDad for figuring that out).
<ducks head, sticks hands in pockets, scuffs the ground>
Aw, shucks.
Hey, can I get some points? I figured it out before DD.
I just didn't say anything.
Frank Apisa wrote:
Amazing! George Bush is doing to our country what Ronald Reagan did to the USSR.
DTOM wrote:
unbelievable isn't it ?
Bush's approval rating is now below 40-percent and going downwards.
cicerone imposter wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:
Amazing! George Bush is doing to our country what Ronald Reagan did to the USSR.
DTOM wrote:
unbelievable isn't it ?
Bush's approval rating is now below 40-percent and going downwards.
It is amazing that almost 40% of the population still approve of his handling of anything...including jelly donuts. But that might be a function of our deteriorating school systems.
And he's responsible for that too! LOL
BTW, Schools used to be the purview of state and local governments, but Bush likes to stick his nose into issues that he likes to ruin for generations to come.
Just wondering how historians are gonna treat this dumkoff?
joefromchicago wrote:Before this thread drops off the front page, I should reveal who was the author of the quotations that I cited.
It was George W. Bush (five points to DrewDad for figuring that out).
I had a feeling it might be him. It's the same MBA-speak as his talk about how "80% of all known Al Quaeda leaders have been arrested or killed." I don't think this mindset helps when fighting a war. By saying this, I am implicitly assuming that there is
any mindset that the president honestly adheres to, and this assumption that almost certainly errs on the flattering side.)
Thomas wrote:joefromchicago wrote:Before this thread drops off the front page, I should reveal who was the author of the quotations that I cited.
It was George W. Bush (five points to DrewDad for figuring that out).
I had a feeling it might be him. It's the same MBA-speak as his talk about how "80% of all known Al Quaeda leaders have been arrested or killed." I don't think this mindset helps when fighting a war. By saying this, I am implicitly assuming that there is
any mindset that the president honestly adheres to, and this assumption that almost certainly errs on the flattering side.)
What was the purpose of the word "almost" in that last sentence???
This has been a fun five pages to read.
Clarence Page, a writer I came to know through PBS News. And for those who weren't lucky enough to catch it, a discussion from 8 days past on the Newshour with David Brooks, Thomas Oliphant (Boston Globe), and Page...
on Katrina, and it's exceptional
YES This Was Actually On FOX
While they do report the need for withdrawel as a political move (shitheads - only concerned with votes!) they also are becoming critical of Bush not having an exit strategy.
No exit strategy means we don't know how much more it's going to cost Americans to continue this war and stablization effort. That means more American men and women will be sacrificed for a justification that's still not clear. How many more billions we are willing to spend is also unknown. When Americans begin to see the difficulties of trying to support this war against what we see happening to our own people in New Orleans begins to hit home. Some are so ignorant, they'll never understand the cost, and continue to support this unqualified and unquantified war in Iraq. I truly believe "stay the coarse" has run it's coarse. People are getting mad every time they fill up their cars at the pump, and the experts are predicting that energy cost in January is gonna be 40 percent higher. Some people are gonna blow their tops, and maybe realize this administration isn't doing such a good job after all!
and then suddenly, bing!. a lightbulb goes on.
And while we sit and carry on as usual;
Saudi: Iraq situation unraveling Regional war may ensue, official says
By ROBIN WRIGHT The Washington Post
September 23. 2005 8:00AM
WASHINGTON - Saudi Arabia warned yesterday that the situation in Iraq is moving "toward disintegration," with a growing danger that the country will dissolve into a civil war that will draw its neighbors into a broader regional conflict.
During a visit to Washington, Saudi Foreign Minister Saud Faisal told reporters that his government has also warned the Bush administration of the dangers of Iraq's unraveling because of tensions between rival ethnic and religious groups, which he said were never as bad during former President Saddam Hussein's rule as they are today.
"The impression is gradually going toward disintegration. There seems to be no dynamic now that is pulling the country together. All the dynamics there are pushing the (Iraqi) people away from each other," Faisal said.
As a result, Iraq is now a "very threatening" challenge undermining stability throughout the Middle East. "It will draw the countries of the region into conflict. That is the main worry of all the neighbors of Iraq," he said.
Faisal warned that Iraq's further disintegration would also bring Shiite-dominated Iran more directly into support for Iraq's Shiite majority, while Turkey would "not allow"a Kurdish country to emerge on its border. It would also divide Iraq into three parts, all of which would vie for control of the oil resources.
This administration never understood the history nor the difficulties of trying to force a "American-style" democracy on Iraq. Bush and his minions kept saying that the elections was progress, while the rest of the world stood unconvinced. Reconstruction is not showing any progress, and those living in Baghdad are lucky to have four hours of electricity every day.
Civil war was predicted long before Bush decided to have his war in Iraq. It was just delayed with more dead people on all sides at very high cost to Americans.
If anybody in business showed so much incompetence, they would have been out on their ears long ago. Instead, these guys are gonna live on life-long benefits funded by taxpayers not available to the average citizen. Aint life grand?
