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Why Do Higher Gas Prices Anger You?

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 12:35 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Oops, mean't Thomas, not Walter.

Well, what I didn't say in that post is that our gas taxes were much higher than yours even before we subsidized our retirement pension system with them. Another reason is that as taxes go, gas taxes are relatively good about not disrupting the economy. If you tax wages and interest, you discourage people from working and saving, which you don't want to discourage. If you tax fossil fuels, you discourage people from wasting gas, which you do want to discourage. Whenever fiscal reality catches up with the majority in Congress, I hope they don't raise the income tax but the gas tax. It's the kind of tax that honest Republicans can like, and I hope they realize it at some point.
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 08:08 am
Thomas,

Like all value-added taxes, the federal gas tax is an equal tax to all who consume gasoline. However, it is a regressive tax in that it taxes the poor more severely than it does the wealthy.

Perhaps a good republican might find this equitable, but I doubt that most Americans who are squeezed financially by this current Administration would agree.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 08:27 am
Interesting, Cavolina. Here in Germany, supporting this tax gives you good left-wing credentials whereas our right wing fiercely opposes them. I guess a lot her is about symbolism, not substance. On a different point, the payroll tax that finances your Social Security program is even more regressive than our gasoline tax, so even by your standards, our solution would seem to be better than yours.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 08:30 am
I wouldn't mind paying four or even five dollars a gallon if I felt like my government would take care of me if I got sick or displaced.... the 1300.00 a month I used to pay for health insurance would have covered the difference nicely
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 08:33 am
Quote:
The storm disrupted oil drilling and distribution along the Gulf Coast, and the Senate Energy Committee convened a hearing into the rising cost of gasoline. Republicans and Democrats said they suspect price gouging in the aftermath of the storm, but said the government lacks the ability to adequately investigate or prevent such abuses.

"There are growing concerns that oil companies are making too much in profits at the expense of consumers," said Sen. Pete Domenici (news, bio, voting record), R-N.M., chairman of the committee.


What?

Quote:
Grassley, R-Iowa, said he favors loan relief for farmers whose grain harvest may not reach market on schedule because of difficulties at the New Orleans port. Sen. Max Baucus (news, bio, voting record), D-Montana, called for help with Medicaid costs in states that take in storm victims. Sen. Ted Stevens (news, bio, voting record), R-Alaska, said he favors tax relief for airlines hardhit by a spike in fuel costs.


We highly suspect price gouging, we're gonna investigate but likely can't do much about it, so we need to give money to the airlines using public coffers?
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 08:34 am
Oooops, Better give a source on that one. Smile
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 08:39 am
Squinney
squinney wrote:


Careful there, Squinney, only three ooopses a day allowed.

BBB :wink:
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 08:40 am
Finn, my point was that, from taxes at all levels (state and fed) the tax burden on gas is about 13%NOW. It was as high as 25% because why? GAS WAS CHEAPER.

All the additional 2= bucks per gallon is net profit , since theyve already factored in their costs, and amortized exploration and transmission. Weve been screwed with our eyes open.

As far as EU goes, their position is their position. Weve just been handed,over the last few years, another spike in petroleum costs that is, despite what the oil boys say, is gouging. A barrel of oil in US would net about 1.50 profit before 2002. Now, its gradually creeped up to over 10. These are API numbers and I have no reason to doubt them, they may even be a bit on the conservative side.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 08:42 am
farmerman wrote:
Finn, my point was that, from taxes at all levels (state and fed) the tax burden on gas is about 13%NOW. It was as high as 25% because why? GAS WAS CHEAPER.

All the additional 2= bucks per gallon is net profit , since theyve already factored in their costs, and amortized exploration and transmission. Weve been screwed with our eyes open.

As far as EU goes, their position is their position. Weve just been handed,over the last few years, another spike in petroleum costs that is, despite what the oil boys say, is gouging. A barrel of oil in US would net about 1.50 profit before 2002. Now, its gradually creeped up to over 10. These are API numbers and I have no reason to doubt them, they may even be a bit on the conservative side.


Is KY a petoleum product?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 08:48 am
farmerman wrote:
Finn, my point was that, from taxes at all levels (state and fed) the tax burden on gas is about 13%NOW. It was as high as 25% because why? GAS WAS CHEAPER.

All the additional 2= bucks per gallon is net profit , since theyve already factored in their costs, and amortized exploration and transmission. Weve been screwed with our eyes open.

As far as EU goes, their position is their position. Weve just been handed,over the last few years, another spike in petroleum costs that is, despite what the oil boys say, is gouging. A barrel of oil in US would net about 1.50 profit before 2002. Now, its gradually creeped up to over 10. These are API numbers and I have no reason to doubt them, they may even be a bit on the conservative side.


Yeah, but Finn takes any opportunity to jab at Euro-Socialism, Islamo-Fascism, or any other hyphenated -ism at any chance that he gets; it's the American way!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 08:52 am
blueveinedthrobber wrote:

Is KY a petoleum product?


Yes, what a coincidence.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 09:02 am
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
I wouldn't mind paying four or even five dollars a gallon if I felt like my government would take care of me if I got sick or displaced.... the 1300.00 a month I used to pay for health insurance would have covered the difference nicely

Good point.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 08:55 pm
Quote:
I heard today on the radio only 7% of our fuel comes from the Gulf area.


Just about 25% of the U.S.'s total consumption comes from the Gulf's (of Mexico) refineries. Of this 10% is imported oil that is off loaded at the LOOP (Louisiana Offshore Oil Port), the nation's only deepwater tanker terminal, which typically receives almost a million barrels of foreign crude oil a day.


Katrina has affected a number of factors in the U.S. delivery of Petrol.

1. Both man and unmanned oil rigs had been shut down in anticipation of the storm. This goes for the LOOP also.
2. The extensive network of pipelines that carry the product from the well heads to the refineries has been damaged by underwater mudslides caused by Katrina.
3. A large number of refineries in the area were shut down as a precautionary measure pre-storm and only now are some coming back up.
4. The large pipelines going from the refineries to the Midwest, southeast, and northeast areas of the country were affected by this storm. The experts feel it won't be long before these will be restored (weeks or less). The one to the northeast has now been brought online and this, coupled with the end of the summer drive season, is the reason we in this area have seen a small decrease in gas at the pump.

Just a word about prices and price controls:

Prices are merely an economic signal. They inform the consumer as to a product's or service's value or availability. When "well meaning" politicians pass and enforce price controls this signal is obliterated. Recent calls by some members of Congress to criminalize "price gouging" are similar to the passing of the 55mph speed limit -- it makes felons of regular law abiding citizens. Absent price controls President Nixon would have had no need for this move (another phenomenon attributed to price controls--you see price controlsare like telling a lie that then leads to another and so on) The example of the ?'70's gas lines has been cited but more contemporary examples abound. Recently Indonesia has let gas prices rise to alleviate "subsidy pressures". Then there was the recent gas shortage in one of the Chinese mainland's provinces where the price is controlled. The solution there was to quickly take gas from other areas (probably less affluent and certainly less potentially politically noisy) and shift it to the area where fights were breaking out in the gas lines (sound familiar?).This is merely robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Further, many define "price gouging" as when a station owner charges much more than the current mark-up for gas he had purchased at a lower price. But the station owner's concern is not the gas from his last delivery it is that of the next. If he cannot pay for that next batch, he is out of business, in which case the consumer gets no gas at all.

Thirdly, many criticize the "Big Oil" companies for not increasing production so that all our lives will be easier. But how are they to do this and, more importantly why would they do so, if price controls guarantee they will lose money on their investment? The signal of higher prices informs these companies it might be time to try to tap those fields where extraction is more expensive but now profitable. None of us go to work to make our boss's lives easier or better so why should any oil company do this? Oh, by the way if you own stock in the oil companies this lesson is not lost on you, but to those who so complain about these companies and own mutual funds?-check the prospectus under the heading Energy Sector before slipping into self righteous indignation.

JM
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 11:44 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
farmerman wrote:
Finn, my point was that, from taxes at all levels (state and fed) the tax burden on gas is about 13%NOW. It was as high as 25% because why? GAS WAS CHEAPER.

All the additional 2= bucks per gallon is net profit , since theyve already factored in their costs, and amortized exploration and transmission. Weve been screwed with our eyes open.

As far as EU goes, their position is their position. Weve just been handed,over the last few years, another spike in petroleum costs that is, despite what the oil boys say, is gouging. A barrel of oil in US would net about 1.50 profit before 2002. Now, its gradually creeped up to over 10. These are API numbers and I have no reason to doubt them, they may even be a bit on the conservative side.


Yeah, but Finn takes any opportunity to jab at Euro-Socialism, Islamo-Fascism, or any other hyphenated -ism at any chance that he gets; it's the American way!

Cycloptichorn


Geez Cyclo, I'm getting the impression that you don't like me.

Please say it ain't so.

Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 07:52 am
Thomas

I am not sure I agree that Soc. Security is a regressive tax in that it is based on earnings. the more you earn the more you pay. There is a certain bias build into it by the fat-cats. The ceiling on taxable earnings makes it somewhat regressive in that all of the less affluent pay SS taxes on the full amount of their income. The more affluent pay SS taxes only a portion of their income.

Under the current scenario, you are right. But only because government has screwed up again.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 08:06 am
I can vouch for what is being written in mutual funds commentary regarding oil and prices. As part of my work I review annual reports and review commentaries. I can't give out details as some of the reports have not been published yet, but at least one fund has a whole section discussing the energy industry and what is currently occurring.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 10:50 am
cavolina wrote:
I am not sure I agree that Soc. Security is a regressive tax in that it is based on earnings. the more you earn the more you pay.

And the more gasoline you consume, the more you pay too. The same is true for every consumption tax.
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2005 09:20 am
While we are on the subject of taxes, I may be in the minority, but I believe that a sound State requires tax revenues to do the most basic of things: protect its citizens.

The current administration seems to have abandoned future generations to one hell of a debt. Almost like a parent who runs up a large credit card debt and passes it on to his child. The net effect is to strangle the child with the debt load precluding the child from maximizing itself.

So too, it will be with the future citizens. They will perhaps be unable to invest in a crumbling infrastructure or even worse a sound national defense.

We are mortgaging the future. No matter your political stripe, this is fiscal insanity. The tax cut need be rescinded. The war in Iraq brought to a conclusion. The current leadership in Washington must be made to act in the interest of all the people or be run of office.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2005 09:25 am
cavolina
cavolina, welcome to A2K, glad to have you here and to read your Newbie thoughts on an important topic.

BBB
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2005 04:07 pm
North Carolina is looking into price gouging at the pumps.

Anyone else know if their state is doing the same?
0 Replies
 
 

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