14
   

Trump and 18 others charged in Georgia Election Probe

 
 
hightor
 
  5  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2023 04:25 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
Why he fled, I have no idea. I can only say that he didn't respond to my criticism of his statements.

I apologize for my lack of forum etiquette but glitterbag got it right; your critical reply to my earlier post really didn't merit any attempt at a response. Whether Trump's statements cross a legal line will be determined in a federal trial, not by the two of us expressing our differing viewpoints on a message board. I believe that the overall pattern of Trump's behavior indicates fraudulence and guilt; you see his statements as those of an innocent man. Not much reason for either of us to think anything we say might change the other's opinion.

Quote:
Sinking to an ad hominem attack is what people do when they cannot compete on the underlying topic.

Do you really see this discussion as "competition"?

Actually there are many reasons to use ad hominem arguments and they are not necessarily fallacious. Douglas Walton's Arguer's position: A Pragmatic Study of Ad Hominem Attack, Criticism, Refutation, and Fallacy, Greenwood Press, 1985 is probably the best book on the subject.
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2023 06:36 am
@bellebeast,
bellebeast wrote:

What do u think he will finisf war inUkraine?


With a payday from Putin.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2023 06:38 am
@Brandon9000,
Re: glitterbag (Post 7337604)
Sinking to an ad hominem attack is what people do when they cannot compete on the underlying topic.

You do realize you just made an ad homonem attack, right???
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  5  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2023 12:37 pm
@hightor,
What do you do when a persons position:
- isn't founded on logic, but rather is based on
- their emotions; and
- their need to be right; and
- the refuse to come from any other angle in support of their statements?

Is Ad Hominem a fallacy in this circumstance.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  3  
Reply Mon 9 Oct, 2023 12:32 pm
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/charlie-munger-says-denial-reason-172543782.html
Charlie Munger, talking about investments and why few 'experts' beat the stock market average... but two truths that applies to everyone driven by pervasive emotions.
Quote:
"If I had to name one factor that dominates human bad decisions, it would be what I call denial," Munger said. "If the truth is unpleasant enough, people kind of — their mind plays tricks on them, and they think it isn't really happening."
and
Quote:
"What people wish is what they believe,"
Reminds me of 'Trump was robbed' believers, among many other groups of wilfully blind people
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Oct, 2023 01:22 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/charlie-munger-says-denial-reason-172543782.html
Charlie Munger, talking about investments and why few 'experts' beat the stock market average... but two truths that applies to everyone driven by pervasive emotions.
Quote:
"If I had to name one factor that dominates human bad decisions, it would be what I call denial," Munger said. "If the truth is unpleasant enough, people kind of — their mind plays tricks on them, and they think it isn't really happening."
and
Quote:
"What people wish is what they believe,"
Reminds me of 'Trump was robbed' believers, among many other
groups of wilfully blind people


When I was a stock broker...many years ago...our favorite saying was:

THE PUBLIC IS ALWAYS WRONG.

0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2023 02:59 pm
What I don't understand about the Trump was robbed brigade, is that to believe what they believe, they must believe:

- that 50 different judges found no fraud MUST be part of a giant conspiracy (despite being from different States). It's mind bogglingly idiotic.

- that the corrupt and doctored footage claiming fraud in Georgia wasn't consistent with the losses before 50 different judges.

- that Trump asking the Governor for 11,780 votes in Georgia wasn't wasn't consistent with the doctored Georgia footage, and wasn't consistent with the 50 lost 'election fraud' cases...and that he didn't try to rig the election by insistently asking the Governor to find 11,780 votes...threatening criminal offenses if they weren't found...and it was simply incredibly coincidental that those 11,780 were just enough to win....somehow wasn't an attempt to rig the vote.

- that the dominion voting machines fiasco, which defamation cost Fox $780M, isn't a ruling consistent with any of the above;

- that Trumps speeches before the Inauguration weren't consistent with the above.

- that Trumps behaviour during his Presidency, of firing anyone who disagreed with him, of using his position & power to call out anyone who criticised him, of using his position & power to brand as fake news anything he didn't like....wasn't consistent with his behaviour above when he lost the election.

To me, the examples that directly relate to Trump...are all easily explainable as having the same recurring personality flaw behind them.
glitterbag
 
  5  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2023 03:24 pm
@vikorr,
I see Trump as a greedy thief. He never gets enough of anything.
0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  3  
Reply Fri 20 Oct, 2023 11:44 am

Lawyer Chesebro, who authored fake elector memos, pleads guilty in Georgia case

Quote:
Kenneth Chesebro, a lawyer who authored memos detailing how Republicans could send false slates of presidential electors to Congress, has pleaded guilty in the Georgia election interference case that charged him and 18 others.

Chesebro pleaded guilty Friday to one felony count of conspiracy to commit filing false documents. Prosecutors recommended he serve five years of probation, pay restitution and complete community service, along with testifying at trial.

Jury selection for his trial had been slated to begin Friday. Chesebro, who requested a speedy trial in the case, had been set to go to trial alongside attorney Sidney Powell, but she also took a plea deal, on Thursday.

The planned October trial for Powell and Chesebro had been seen as a sort of first run of prosecutors' sweeping narrative of the alleged conspiracy.

A trial date for the case's other co-defendants, including former President Donald Trump, has not been set.

Chesebro was charged in the Georgia case with seven felony counts, including racketeering.

According to the indictment, one memo he wrote "provides detailed, state-specific instructions for how Trump presidential elector nominees in Georgia, Arizona, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin would meet and cast electoral votes" for Trump, even though he lost the election in those states.
0 Replies
 
Below viewing threshold (view)
hightor
 
  6  
Reply Tue 24 Oct, 2023 03:43 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
I challenge you to tell me one crime Trump may have committed.

There's ample evidence of his removing classified documents from the White House and, as a private citizen, refusing to return them.

Quote:
If he's so guilty, you should be able to describe one likely crime.

This is a description of a likely crime of which he may be found guilty. And it's not a matter of him being "so guilty" – he's either guilty or not guilty, like being pregnant. And while he looks guilty to me, his actual guilt will be legally determined when he goes to trial.

Quote:
Comments from the peanut gallery will be ignored until I'm done with you.

What happens if I get done with you first?
tsarstepan
 
  3  
Reply Tue 24 Oct, 2023 09:32 am
WOOOHOOO! Lock one more into the Guilty Column!
Ex-Trump attorney Jenna Ellis pleads guilty in Georgia election interference case
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 24 Oct, 2023 07:56 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
I challenge you to tell me one crime Trump may have committed./quote]
There's ample evidence of his removing classified documents from the White House and, as a private citizen, refusing to return them. you.


Well, if it's so "ample," then you should be able to tell me what it is.

All presidents have retained presidential records. Trump's were selected and packed by the GSA. Trump had unlimited power to declassify. Biden was found to have kept classified records in his garage and other places. Bill Clinton actually removed records illegally from the National Archives and they simply made a rule that he shouldn't do it in the future without review. Hillary Clinton destroyed thousands of e-mails on an illegal server that had specifically been subpoenaed and some of which were classified. Sandy Berger, President Clinton's national security adviser, was found to have snuck documents out of the National Archives in his clothes. How is Trump different, other than the fact that you want to pin something on him?

Is that actually the best you've got? I ask again. Tell me a crime he may have committed and don't just copy and paste a charge name.
Bogulum
 
  5  
Reply Tue 24 Oct, 2023 08:29 pm
If Trump is tried, convicted and sentenced to life in prison, mf-ers like Brandon will still be talking about “they had no proof” and “it was rigged” and ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING ELSE but Donald Trump is getting the consequences of his own actions.

It’s the definition of useless to try to reason with mf-ers like that.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  5  
Reply Wed 25 Oct, 2023 01:41 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
I challenge you to tell me one crime Trump may have committed. Don't just copy and paste some charge name, describe his action. If he's so guilty, you should be able to describe one likely crime.
This is legally niaive (I've previously explained why). Having had this explained to you - your quote above borders on a vexatiously argumentative request.

Going passed your niaive request for rewording of lawful charges (again, definitions of crime can't work that way)....Hightors stance is quite sensible, because the courts exist for a reason, one of which is to remove public opinion from the equation, which is often subjective and often seriously flawed - without complete knowledge of matters (as law enforcement never reveals everything until court).
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  6  
Reply Wed 25 Oct, 2023 08:29 am
@Brandon9000,
I must admit that I am flabbergasted at just how remarkably ill-informed you are.....it's quite a feat but I suppose we have 'patriots' like Steve Bannon to thank for the outrageous amount of ignorance he was able to infuse into certain people.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  4  
Reply Wed 25 Oct, 2023 10:17 am
@Brandon9000,
Just because you say it don't make true, factual, real.

Document one President who took Secret documents home. Besides the Orange Shitgibbon.
tsarstepan
 
  3  
Reply Wed 25 Oct, 2023 10:40 am
@bobsal u1553115,
The crime isn't necessarily bringing the documents home.

It's ...
1. Taking them home.
2. Sharing top secret documents and their info to people without the proper security clearance.
3. Lying to investigators with legal orders that you don't have these documents in the first place.
4. Repeating the criminal lie from no. 3 time and time again.

We have so much documented incidents where the Orange Sewerage Discharge committed those criminal acts. And while throwing in obstruction of justice and conspiracy to conceal those criminal actions.
~~
Others have accidentally taken top secret documents home. And the big difference is, once the officials who are in charge of these documents ask for them back? These officials turn them in promptly.
0 Replies
 
Real Music
 
  3  
Reply Wed 25 Oct, 2023 08:41 pm
Sen. Romney: All Trump had to do was hand in the documents; why didn't he turn them in?


Published Jun 16, 2023


0 Replies
 
Real Music
 
  3  
Reply Wed 25 Oct, 2023 08:57 pm
By: Niall Stanage
August 17, 2023


Quote:
Mar-a-Lago classified documents

The basics

Trump is charged with 40 counts, a handful of which have either one or two co-defendants. The others charged are Trump aide Walt Nauta and Mar-a-Lago property manager Carlos De Oliveira, both of whom have pleaded not guilty.

The charges against Trump include 32 counts of willful retention of national defense information, one count of conspiracy to obstruct justice and several counts pertaining to different forms of concealment.

Lead prosecutor

Special counsel Jack Smith

What’s it all about?

Trump’s retention of sensitive documents from his presidency, in the face of efforts by the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), and latterly the FBI, to get them back:

This was a long and tortuous effort, which appears to have been constantly frustrated by Trump.

Ultimately, more than 300 documents bearing classified markings were either given back or discovered when the FBI raided Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence in Florida Aug. 8, 2022.

A May 2022 subpoena had required Trump to turn over all documents in his possession that were marked as classified. He did not do so.

Instead, in June 2022, the Trump team turned over 38 documents and an attorney for the former president certified that “any and all responsive documents” were included. This was untrue.

Trump Danger Ranking: 1

The former president’s case is weak from the get-go, including his own public claim — notably not repeated in any legal filings by his lawyers — that, as president, he could declassify things in his mind without needing to tell anyone.

The charge of conspiracy to obstruct justice may be the most dangerous for Trump.

The indictment includes an abundance of seemingly grave details in this respect.

Trump is alleged to have suggested lying to authorities, asking one of his lawyers, “Wouldn’t it be better if we just told them we don’t have anything here?”

His aide, Nauta, is alleged to have moved boxes of documents at the former president’s direction, perhaps to aid their concealment. His lawyer is alleged to recall that at one point Trump made a plucking motion to suggest the lawyer might remove the most incriminating documents from those he would hand over to authorities.

It’s possible, perhaps, that Trump will simply argue this conduct never took place. But if prosecutors can prove that it did, it is very hard to find a plausible explanation that gets the former president off the hook.


https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4155978-trump-criminal-indictments-ranked-by-risk/
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 05/20/2024 at 05:10:32