1
   

Where Are All The W.M.D.s?

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 09:47 pm
I'm at an unnatural keyboard.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 10:21 pm
mcG

You rhetorically inquired as to what the administration's motivation might be... this should help...I'll excerpt a small bit
Quote:
In the Beginning
In 1992, Paul Wolfowitz, then-under secretary of defense for policy, supervised the drafting of the Defense Policy Guidance document. Wolfowitz had objected to what he considered the premature ending of the 1991 Iraq War. In the new document, he outlined plans for military intervention in Iraq as an action necessary to assure "access to vital raw material, primarily Persian Gulf oil" and to prevent the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and threats from terrorism.

http://www.ceip.org/files/nonprolif/templates/Publications.asp?p=8&PublicationID=1214
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 10:28 pm
blatham, You can tatoo that on McG's forehead, and it still won't sink in. c.i.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 10:29 pm
Actually, I'd prefer to have it tattooed on Wolfowitz's balls.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 10:35 pm
You'd have to use something much smaller than pica type. To our surprise, he may not have any. Wink c.i.
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GreenEyes
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 11:28 pm
c.i. ... Give it up buddy... brick is not NEARlY as absorbant as a sponge. I have been banging my head against monitor in your stead!
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 11:34 pm
LOL!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 11:40 pm
Gee, GreenEyes, don't damage your pretty head on my account. c.i.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 11:55 pm
Blatham - I am finding that a most valuable and interesting link. Thank you.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 01:04 am
McGentrix wrote:

First off, WTF is Pridian existance?


Pridian

McGentrix wrote:

Secondly, If you mean that "it existed once, that doesn't mean it still exists", I would ask how can you know?


I meant nothing of the sort.

What I stated is that your comment: "The weapons existed, that much is certain. That means they still exist somewhere."

Is equivocal. Yes they existed, no that does not mean they still exist. BTW, I am of the opinion that some are still in Iraq. But the logic you used is simply false.

McGentrix wrote:

Did aliens beam the weapons to another planet?


No.

McGentrix wrote:
We have evidece that Iraq had both biological and chemical weapons from both eye witness accounts and UN inspections. Do you agree with that?


Yes, at some time we did have such evidence. In the past Iraq had as much a right to these weapons as anyone else.

McGentrix wrote:

Iraq can not provide proof that they have destroyed those weapons, nor can we prove that they have not. If neither side can show wat happened to them, then where are they?


I never claimed to know the answer to that question. I simply do not have enough information to draw a definitive conclusion.

It is now apparent that the US administration, despite their access to information I do not have, also did not have enough information to draw adefinitive conclusion, let alone portray the situation as dire.

McGentrix wrote:
Explain to me why that is "the most inherently flawed sets of logic I have ever seen."? Especially after reading some of the other stuff around here.


You'll see a lot of dumb stuff around here, the difference is that much of that stuff does not seek to use logic.

You did, you said that previous existence = current existence and that is simply false and so obviously so that I derided it.

McGentrix wrote:

France Germany, Russia and Who?


France, Germany, Russia, Pakistan, Mexico, Chile, Syria, China, Angola, Guinea.......

McGentrix wrote:
France, being a permanent member on the security council can effectively halt any resolution brought before the security council all by itself. I assume you know that, and realize that by France saying they would veto any additional resolutions, there was no sense in even submitting it.


I disagree. While a security council rejection is a drawback for those who wanted the war it would have helped them if it was vetoed by France. It would help them characterize France as the spoil sport.

The attempt to blame France happened anyway but the truth is that France was not the only nation that would have vote against it.

In any case, look up the last time France vetoed the US, or even abstained when the US needed their vote.

You will find something interesting.

McGentrix wrote:

I personally believe that they belived that there were WMDs. I also happen to think that this was not their primary motivation but was used to give a legal pretext.


Then what was?[/quote]

I believe the Administration's motives to have been varied, of course, but to sum it up I believe that this Administration is eager to put the power America has to use. Be it economic or military.

I belive they want to reinvent America's position in the world through more agressive means.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 01:08 am
mamajuana wrote:

Perhaps the simplest thing is to say there is no logic, which is why this endless discussion. It just goes on and on.


I disagree, there are plenty of logical ways to go about defending the choice to go to war.

I happen to think that many of the people who share my opinion about the justification of the war exhibit "blind faith" and I certainly do not think those who supported the war are the only ones guilty of it.

On these forums I happen to believe that there is a greater ratio of anti-war people talking out their asses than the pro-war camp.
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 01:11 am
I hope I'm not one of them.
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Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 01:16 am
Reinvent it, Craven? Its more like rebrand it. Something along the lines of "UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT. Past performance is no indicator of future intentions".


I mean doesn't it strike anyone as a bit of a 'happy' coincidence that the nation with a third of the world's cars just invaded the nation with a third of the world's oil? Like the fish in a milkchurn, not evidence on its own, but it can't be ignored.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 01:23 am
McGentrix wrote:
This is how I see it...in simple terms.


In your post you confuse simple with factually incorrect.

McGentrix wrote:
The cops came in and beat the **** out of Bob, and while they were there, spotted a whole bunch of **** that Bob had that he shouldn't have had.


Iraq had as much right to the WMDs as we do. We currently have more in way of WMDs that Iraq could have dreamed of. The WMD ban for them was part of their agreement to end the gulf war.

Caveat: I have a slight doubt about this. Less than 5%.

McGentrix wrote:

During this time, Bob has beat his kids, tortured his wife, and killed the dog. The cops are aware of this, but don't feel the need to do anything about it.


The cops were aware of it before the whole example started. The cops didn't care before because Bob was "tight" with the cops (by cops i mean the USA here) since Bob as acting as an informant on Ira (Iran).

McGentrix wrote:
The now that he hasn't gotten rid of the stuff he was supposed to, and they are tired of watching him beat his kids.


No no, he beat his kids more violently in the past and the US supported him.

McGentrix wrote:

Finally, this portion of the police dept (US,UK, etc) decide that they are going to do something about it, but they know that the other cops are not going to be so willing to go over to Bob's house without some convincing. So, they go on TV and say that Bob has a baseball bat in the top counter drawer next to the coffee pot, and he has a bottle of Acid under the sink, next to the drain-o, and he has a machete in the basement by the dryer, and he has a loaded .45 in the bedroom under his pillow.


Nah they say they know where it is but can't tell the cops.

McGentrix wrote:

Well, Bob watches this TV show and realizes that a **** storm is coming his way. He knows he won't have much time, but he does have some time so, at night, he has an unidentified friend come over and all the stuff that the cops mentioned on TV disappears.


Cite. Don't make dumb crap up. Analogies are not a license for invention.

McGentrix wrote:

Well, The cops that are fed up decide to take action, but, not immediate action, first they park their cars in front of Bob's house with the lights on, and then they set up barricades, and they wait for a bit while the rest of the cops figure out if they are going to help, meanwhile, Bob hasn't shown one thing to the cops to make them leave, hasn't even shown his face in the window. Well, the cops finally barge in and lo and behold, the stuff he was supposed to have is gone! They then have to start looking for it, but while they do, the other cops are yelling at them and complaining and trying to do their job as well.


No, it's more like this.

The police chief and most of the cops think that invading Bob's house is not needed but rogue cops decide to do it anyway and do not find evidence to support their diversion from the law.

McGentrix wrote:
Ok, a bit long I know, but I kind of got into it. I will not respond to a simple break down of what I have written, as this is what I think and that is that. Maybe I have given you some insight, maybe I have given you a laugh, whatever. Also, I am on my wifes "natural" keyboard so ignore any spelling errors.


Damn, i wish I'd read it before responding (I respond while I read). Oh well, I'll respond anyway for those whose minds are not made up (and I retract this statement.

In short. The US is no cop. Cops do not give themselves authority.

Like analogies? Try this one on for size.

Bob tried to kill my kid. He was sentenced to 25 years and got out on parole.

I disagree with the parole board and think his behavior was not good and that he shouldn't have been released. He has beat his wife and kids before and killed two neighbors in the past so I simply think he is evil.

I told the police that he needs to go to jail and they told me they would keep an eye on him but would not arrest him.

I went to the court and they said my evidence that Bob was trying to buy a gun was speculative and in some cases patently false.

I decide that I need to protect myself regardless of what the stupid courts say so I bust into his house and kill bob.

I accidentally kill his wife and many of his pets and his kids.

The End.

:-)
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 01:26 am
Mr Stillwater wrote:
Reinvent it, Craven? Its more like rebrand it. Something along the lines of "UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT. Past performance is no indicator of future intentions".


I mean doesn't it strike anyone as a bit of a 'happy' coincidence that the nation with a third of the world's cars just invaded the nation with a third of the world's oil? Like the fish in a milkchurn, not evidence on its own, but it can't be ignored.


Ahh, I don't buy the oil line. While oil plays a part in any strategic calculation, I do not think it was the primary motivation.

I think Bush is eager to use the US military might and that Iraq was a good place to use it since there was an infamous dictator with a moustaki.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 01:34 am
LOL! All that , and nobody found any need to make silly comments about the possible size of anyone else's gonads!

Did you kill any cats, Craven?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 01:47 am
Yes, I have killed a cat. It was an accident.

BTW, people were talking about gonad size.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 01:48 am
oops, it was actually about the lack of gonads. I wish the ad hominems against the politicians would be replaced by rational discourse.

That is one of the things I was talking about when I referenced talking out of one's ass.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 01:52 am
I was actually referring to the last few contributions - which finally did NOT include such nonsense.

I also wish that such stuff was not part of argument here.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jun, 2003 01:54 am
Ahh but in a perfect world there would be no president bashing either.

<By bashing I mean mindless criticism of speech, habits etc, anything other than the policy and decisions he makes>
0 Replies
 
 

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