The Crack that Lets the Light In

@Ragman,

Ragman wrote:

Can you sing a new song?

I can...and often do. But any time ANYONE, ANYWHERE publishes a thread or comment about theism or atheism that I read...I will respond.

Not sure why that is bothering you right now, Ragman, but that is on you, not me.

Edgar is full of **** on this issue...and his intentions seem to be for me not to tell him that he is. I have no idea of why you choose to defend his position rather than mine here, because my position makes a hell of a lot more sense than his. In any case, I will have my say no matter what.

Quote:

How’s your golf game?

Truthfully, I feel my game is in better shape now than at any time previously. I am hitting the ball as straight as anyone else on the golf course, although I am not hitting it long. None of the people I play with who are my age have much in the way of length to our drives or fairway approaches...but being Fairway Frank is an advantage that makes the lack of length tolerable.

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A word to all, and I mean all.

1) You do not have to answer every barking dog. Your position will not be sullied by not answering every single nitpicky counterargument.
2) Threads naturally evolve. Except for word games and super short threads, expect meandering. And then remember my point #1. You don't have to address all the meandering, either.
3) You don't "lose" if you abandon a topic, even if you created the topic (applies to all topics, not just this one).It's a forum topic, not indentured servitude.
4) If you have made the same arguments for years, or you have heard the same arguments for years. you may as well number them, considering how effective they've been.
5) Telling someone your way is superior to theirs is passive aggressive nonsense, and a recipe for nastiness back.
6) There is no #6. Just want to be sure you're still with me.
7) There is no shame in ignoring someone. Having an empty ignore list isn't a badge of honor or the flex you think it is.
8) If, after all these years, you still don't know how to ignore someone, it's rather intuitive. But if you're still unsure, open a separate topic and ask.
9) Opening the posts from someone you have on ignore, and reading them anyway, defeats the purpose.
10) This is the Internet, and life is short (regardless of whether there's an aftermath). Time is finite. And, see #4. Consider the most productive use of your time, energy, and talents. I strongly suspect that getting on and off the same perpetual argument merry-go-round isn't it for anyone. Do with that information what you will. I'm not pushing any of you folks out the door. I am just suggesting that a little variety is a great thing. In your interactions, and in life in general.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

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@jespah,

Thank you.

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@Frank Apisa,

I just re-edited and deleted my intended response and defer to Jespah’s quite comprehensive post. As usual, it’s spot on. There’s nothing to be gained with either fanning flames or adding to the discord.

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@Ragman,

Ragman wrote:

Frankly (pun intended), what bothers me is your tedious repetition of the same singular issue for years and the purposeful attempt to pollute Edgars’s threads.

I never attempt to pollute ANY thread...no matter who initiates it.

Not sure where you got that idea from, but you really should get rid of it.

I have posted and initiated dozens upon dozens of posts on all sorts of topics...and have enjoyed discussing those many themes. But I have made a commitment to involve myself in any thread (in every forum I visit) that deals with "atheism" or "theism."

How the hell else can I engage in them without touching on the thrust of my arguments?

Quote:

Your clearly not interested in debate as demonstrated by your actions.

Horse ****. If anything my "actions" show that I am anxious to debate the issues. But...continue to delude yourself on that account if you must. I certainly intend to continue to challenge several "atheistic" points at every opportunity.

Quote:

Or if you are still nterested it that, it’s very ham-handed approach.

Horse **** once again. Go back and read my posts in the thread Edgar claims I helped to shut. I was courteous; I stuck to the point; I was reasonable; and I was absolutely on target in every claim I made.

Edgar never even attempted to counter anything I said. Neither have you, as a matter of fact.

Quote:

It’s quite disingenuous to blame him for stifling debate when all you do is rehash your POV ad nauseam, especially when he no longer engages you. It’s analogous to a barking dog guarding a gate where there’s nothing worth protection. I see nothing productive ever coming from your restating a POV that is quite clear years ago. Unless your intent is to lock up his thread and discourage others participating.

My intent is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR. It is to engage anyone claiming "There is a GOD" or "There are no gods." Neither he nor you are going to tell me that I cannot do that...or that I should not do that. You've got a hell of a lot of nerve to even intimate that.

If what I have to say bothers you, do not read my comments, because they ARE going to be variations on what I have said in the past. If people like Edgar are determined to continue to make assertions that SHOULD be challenged, ad nauseum, I intend to challenge them.

Quote:

I wish you well but a less-than-fond adieu. I see no sense in continuing here.

Mike drop

If you are saying that you have put me on IGNORE, okay. That may be the best thing for you to do if what I have to say bothers you too much.

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I was hoping to avoid the morass that the other threads like this turn into. I don't mind people with divergent views being here. As Jes pointed out, I don't have to read what I don't want to. And I really don't peek. I'm on here to post material I think relevant not to debate.

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

I was hoping to avoid the morass that the other threads like this turn into. I don't mind people with divergent views being here. As Jes pointed out, I don't have to read what I don't want to. And I really don't peek. I'm on here to post material I think relevant not to debate.

The title and theme here is that "atheism is the crack that lets the light in."

The notion that "atheism" (as YOU see it) is a crack that lets light in...IS A SUBJECT OF DEBATE. Post all the material you want that you suppose to be not relevant to debate...but the thrust of the thread remains.

And I disagree with it. Strongly...emphatically.

If the fact that I argue that disagreement is too painful for you to handle, your best move was to put me on IGNORE. I have never suggested you should do otherwise.

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@Frank Apisa,

I edited and removed my post but apparently not before you snatched it up, reposted it. That was just not acceptable. Clearly you were aggressively pounced on it, ready to attack defensively. My intent was to remove the post as Jespah, the Moderator, did her thing to defuse this tension. You have no interest in debate but prefer to spread away discouraging participation and dispensing civility.

I for one have no interest in continuing this senseless flogging. This is no civil discussion of ideas. Flog away but my interest has ceased.

1 Reply

@Ragman,

Ragman wrote:

I edited and removed my post but apparently not before you snatched it up, reposted it. That was just not acceptable. Clearly you were aggressively pounced on it, ready to attack defensively. My intent was to remove the post as Jespah, the Moderator, did her thing to defuse this tension. You have no interest in debate but prefer to spread away discouraging participation and dispensing civility.

I for one have no interest in continuing this senseless flogging. This is no civil discussion of ideas. Flog away but my interest has ceased.

I've already said what I have to say to you.

1 Reply

Ragman wrote:

This is no civil discussion of ideas.

I think, more precisely, that in this case it's not possible to have an extended civil discussion about one idea. Frank Apisa is adamant in rejecting any expression of absolute certainty regarding the existence or non-existence of gods, for reasons he has provided and expressed in a logical manner. Given the impossibility of proof for either claim, doesn't it make sense to just move on? There would seem to be a huge number of topics which could be civilly discussed among non-believers. I don't know why this one idea keeps being brought up. No one need continue this particular long-running argument. I posted a relevant essay yesterday under the impression that it had completed its course, and I was unprepared for explosion of rancor. I thought people might comment on the essay and move on. I apologize for unwittingly fanning the flames yet again. It was not my intention.

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I did my best to save the thread from getting locked down.

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@edgarblythe,

Given that it's "your" thread, I think you've done an admirable job. I wasn't directly criticizing you or anyone else, I just think we all have more in common than these continuing skirmishes would lead one to believe.

You know one thing that's always bothered me as an implicit atheist? – the idea that swearing on a christian bible is supposed to guarantee truthful testimony and thus, you can't trust non-believers.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I've already said what I have to say to you.

But that won’t stop you from saying it over and over.

I think it was low to re-post my post that I removed. More proof that your behavior indicates aggression and combativeness instead of civil discord and discussion.

1 Reply

@Ragman,

Ragman wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I've already said what I have to say to you.

But that won’t stop you from saying it over and over.

Everyone posts stuff over and over. The atheists do...the Christians do. I seem to be the only one regularly expressing the agnostic position...so it requires me to repeat stuff from time to time. YOU do have the option of not reading what I write.

Quote:

I think it was low to re-post my post that I removed.

Do you?

I came into my den after an hour in the spa with my wife...came to the computer...read your post...and responded. I did not realize you removed that post when I posted my post. You must have done it simultaneously with my composing my response.

I notice that you did not respond to anything I wrote in my response to you...but instead seem to be suggesting that because you removed your post...I am somehow required to remove mine or be considered "low" if I do not?

That seems off-the-wall to me.

Quote:

More proof that your behavior indicates aggression and combativeness instead of civil discord and discussion.

I am totally willing to have civil discussions on any topic. I am not a monster or a troll, Ragman. I am someone who is willing to engage in discussions on very contentious topics...and for the most part, I retain civility until confronted with repeated incivility.

If you think I do not retain any civility, please stop reading what I post. Perhaps you should do that anyway, because you do not seem to get a sense of what I am saying...or how I am saying it.

I am a civil, intelligent, reasonable human being having discussions in an Internet forum...which sometimes become heated discussions. Atheists do not like some of the things I say...and become heated. They start the nonsense, and at some point, I accommodate them.

If you do not like me or my messages...STOP READING MY POSTS.

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@Frank Apisa,

This all is quite senseless and quite unentertaining but I will choose when, how and to whom I respond without advice.

Out of respect to the OP, I’ll cease replying. to you. It does little good as you seem unable to engage without being “right” and the one who is the aggrieved.

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How can we know there is no creator god? We simply let the question fade and carry on living and never engage with that question again. We then answer the question by not engaging with it, we just let it go, what a relief.

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@Ragman,

Ragman wrote:

This all is quite senseless and quite unentertaining but I will choose when, how and to whom I respond without advice.

Out of respect to the OP, I’ll cease replying. to you. It does little good as you seem unable to engage without being “right”...

Do whatever you want. You have indicated three times now that you will not consider what I say or respond to it...and then you respond, which means you have considered it.

Of course I consider myself to be "right." Why would I post anything unless I felt that way. I would hope that everyone posting here considers what they post to be "right."

Quote:

"...and the one who is the aggrieved."

I do not feel "aggrieved." I do hear people like you giving me **** for posting the same stuff over and over again. Well...posting what is essentially the same thing happens in every forum...and just about everyone does it. For the last two decades I have seen posts from Edgar asserting that THERE ARE NO GODS. How often have you called him to task for doing so?

I have merely called to his attention that that assertion holds no more water than the theistic assertion that THERE IS A GOD. Both are merely guesses or suppositions. It makes sense that I do so...because I am defending an agnostic position on the issue.

How can I comment on something used by someone else OVER AND OVER AND OVER again...and not post the same stuff?

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The A2Ker sat on a stone:
He cannot choose but hear;
And thus spake on that ancient man,
The bright eyed Frank Apisa.

Apologies to Coleridge

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Putting the existance of god/gods to one side, the thing I have noticed about theologians/philosophers is that they can be put into two broad camps.

The first focuses on that which unites us, and views those of a different outlook as having more in common with us than anything else.

The second focuses on the differences, there is only one correct view and those who think otherwise are wrong, or even worse, enemies.

In William Burrough's pamphlet Sects and Death it's shown that the one thing cults need more than anything else is enemies.

I have lots of time for those who stress what unites us, regardless of personal belief and very little time for those who focus on differences.

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The Crack that Lets the Light In

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