Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

Well, the research you have there points to prayer making a difference. Then just one or two sentences about it not. I'm confused.

What's the difference between:

Prayer never worked for me or anybody I know; therefore it doesn't work.

versus

Prayer has worked for me.

It also "explains" prayers; ie there is no explaination.

I find myself preying and I'm not even religious. But then I've been in some pretty comical and helpless situations. I figure hell, I'm a good guy. I've chased down a purse snatcher or two. Maybe the dude in the sheet and the thongs will help me out.

MA, You're always confused when the point is contradictory to your belief system.

Amigo,

Preying? Freudian slip?

Cicerone Imposter Wrote:



Actually, I'm confused because you said this research showed prayer didn't work. Then you posted something that at least made it appear that prayer does work or at least appears to have some positive effect. Then you throw in a couple of sentences that said it doesn't work. And you wonder why I'm confused?

I'd like to be able to read the study.

One must learn to decifer the difference between credible organizations and non-credible organizations. In the scheme of health care, the Mayo clinic is known to be in the highest tier of credibility and skills. If I read any article that includes the Mayo Clinic refuting any research, I'm bound to trust the Mayo Clinic over the researcher.

C.I.,

Well, if you could give us more on the research or the researcher (Targ?) perhaps we could decipher something.

MA, You can do your own research on Targ if it interests you. I've already made my opinion and conclusion. Please do the resarch on Targ. I'm sure you'll learn something important.

Busted, By Momma. Damn!

C.I.,

I am doing my own research because you just like to throw things out there and not offer the links or anything to them. I will get back to you.

C.I.,

So, why would you throw out this person's research? She seems to have some pretty impressive credentials.

"Elisabeth Targ, MD, is director of the Complementary Medicine Research Institute at California Pacific Medical Center, assistant clinical professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of California, San Francisco, and a fellow of the Institute of Noetic Sciences. She was principal investigator of the studies of distant healing in AIDS described in this article."

Here's more on Dr. Targ.

http://www.lifetimetv.com/reallife/health/features/five_womendocs4.html


Amigo,

No harm no foul! I thought it was kind of cute!

c.i.- I believe that the study to which you referred had more to do with prayer by "remote" means than a person praying personally. In other words, you had a situation where people were praying for someone else, often from great distances.

Although I am skeptical, I would not rule the positive result of remote prayer entirely. We are only beginnning to scratch the surface concerning the human mind. It is quite possible that things that are now considered "paranormal", may one day be explained scientifically. I will keep an open mind on the subject.

I remember a time when the word "charisma" was bandied about. It was speculated that there was a physical reason that some people had a sort of personal magnetism that was palpable. I thought that it was interesting when I read somewhere that the halos that are seen in many religious paintings, may really have been the way the artist attempted to describe the charisma which emanated from certain people.

Later on, I read that Kirlian photography could actually indicate when a person had an "aura" which could be an indication of his charisma. I don't know if this thesis was ever scientifically studied, but it is very interesting, and thought provoking.

My point is that there is a lot about human beings, and their powers, of which we do not know much.

Okay, in rebuttal to C.I.'s unlinked source, here's some others. Most just refer to studies without actually linking to them, but some are citing some pretty heavy duty stuff.

Does any of this prove the existance of God? Yes, to those who have experienced God. No, to those who have not. But anybody who is the least bit objective has to allow for the possibility that there just might be something to it:

Here's one site of which I know nothing about or the organization that produces it. But they cite an awful lot of studies that could probably be traced. I do know about the UNM study here in Albuquerque but have not seen what analysis they came up with.

http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm

This one is perhaps from a more verifiably credible source (I'm not saying the other one isn't credible but I can't verify that it is.)

http://www.theunion.com/article/20051007/TODAYSFEATURE/51007006

Healing Through Prayer: Health Practitioners Tell the Story
by Larry Dossey
ISBN:1551262290 (More details...)
Publisher Comments:
Prayer really works! In this unique book doctors and patients quote scientific surveys and relate personal experiences of healing with prayer. They are convinced that prayer has had a profound effect in their lives. Although they do not try to explain how prayer works, many refer to a greater power ?-?- some say God ?-?- who enables the healing work of prayer.
These interviews and stories will provide new conviction to people of all religious faiths, and will give new hope to those who seek healing for themselves, for others, and for the world
http://www.powells.com/biblio?PID=719&cgi=product&isbn=1551262290

Doctors increasingly find introducing prayer helps calm patients and speeds recovery
By Raymond McCaffrey
The Gazette
http://www.texnews.com/1998/religion/med1003.html

MORE STUDIES CITED
http://miraclesofprayer.com/pages/research.htm

Physics- the study of nature ie what is.
Metaphysics- the appreciation of non-nature ie that which isn't.
Religion-the organization of groups dedicated to metaphysics.

Dys,

I looked up metaphysics. Where did you find your definition of it?

Main Entry: meta·phys·ic
Pronunciation: "me-t&-'fi-zik
Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English metaphesyk, from Medieval Latin metaphysica

1 a : METAPHYSICS b : a particular system of metaphysics

2 : the system of principles underlying a particular study or subject : PHILOSOPHY

3b - metaphysic adjective

Religion belongs in Philosophy, not science.

Religion is based on faith and belief, not on systematic consistent obesevation and study.

Prayer belongs in religion and philosophy.

metaphysics=A priori speculation upon questions that are unanswerable to scientific observation, analysis, or experiment.
physics=The study of the natural or material world and phenomena; natural philosophy.

Dys,

I am not discounting your definition. I just wanted to know which source it came from.

Frank, you hate the Christian God because you do not KNOW this God...

You know religion and you quote the Bible like an etch a sketch... One dimensional and black on dull grey.

God is not like you want to portray. You have a habit of making more of yourself than God...

Is that not in itself a subconscious admission of God.

You protest God without any ability to dissect the constituents. You mask your protestation over God's apparent creation of nature and life... It is only you who lives in loneliness and the fear you accuse other of...

I may have my hangups but the last thing I am is lonely... You are magnified only by your own magnification of God... You are subtracted by your subtraction of God.

Your brutality is your own not God's. You refer to the god of the Bible...

Yet you do not see FIRST... God is righteous... God is Light... God is love... above all else... It is up to you, not the Bible... When you see then you see the truth of "the God of the "Bible""...