Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

Momma Angel wrote:

I Corinthians 6:9 - Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. But you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Does that not say forgiven?

Momma Angel wrote:

But let me be very clear on something, Mesquite. While I do believe homosexuality is a sin, I do not treat homosexuals any differently than I would anyone else. I may not agree with what they do, but the judgement is up to God, not to me. I am to treat everyone as I would have them treat me, and I try very, very hard to adhere to this always.

When you lobby to restrict their human rights, how can you that you do not treat them differently. You appear to be in deep denial.

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Intrepid wrote:

You lost me as soon as you tried to use Islam stonings to portray Christianity. Shocked

Intrepid wrote:

Do you have a point to make, CI?

Since you dismissed my post documenting modern day stoning with nothing more than a snippet, c.i. offered info to show that there is a significant relationship between the biblical texts and the Quran.

I have no idea how you were able to interpret what I wrote in the post located here,

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1526147#1526147

and and say that I used "Islam stonings to portray Christianity". Just is case my point was not clear enough, I was trying to show the dangers of theocratic government combined with antiquated religious texts.

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Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

Does that not say forgiven?

Yes Mesquite, it does say forgiven. But, it does not mean we can continue in that act of sin. Christ told the adulteress that people were wanting to stone that He did not condemn her. But, He also told her, "Go and sin no more." So, it's not just a matter of accepting Christ, we have to make a change in our ways. We must be sincere in our repentance. We are not to use Christ's forgiveness as an excuse to keep doing the same things.

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

When you lobby to restrict their human rights, how can you that you do not treat them differently. You appear to be in deep denial.

I fear we will never reach an agreement here. We are told in the Bible to admonish one another. Just because I lobby for something I feel is right, does not mean that I am trying to do anything other than stand up for what I believe. I am sorry that you do not understand how I can do this and still care about the person as a child of God and an individual.

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snood wrote:

Grampa Apisa,
You're pathetic grampa. Hopelessly in love with your own BS to the point of being no longer teachable. So full of your own answers you've stopped asking questions, and just use your energy taking potshots at those who have faith in something other than themselves. There is human worth in the lowliest or most deranged individuals, if they still have enough presence of mind and humility to admit when they are wrong. But I've seen 3 people confront you about they way you address them (not me - I realize you can't do any better), and you can only see their part in why the conversation goes south. You're the source of most of the bad feelings I see around here. Most others seem to tolerate your BS and chalk it up to your "style" (I think its more likely senility). That ain't gonna happen with me, no matter how many times you use the "quote" function, or dazzle us with your toothless wit.

Oh, Lad...you are so full of anger. You really should learn how to get a grip on that.

Here I have gone out of my way to tell you that I love you...and what do I get back in return. Nothing but more of your constant tirade of insults and invictive.

But I am much to civilized to allow that to cause me to insult you in return.

I love ya, Snood...and the fact that you are going ape right now does not change that one bit.

I know that at some point you will get back in control.

Twisted Evil

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Momma Angel wrote:

[MESSAGE DELETED BY AUTHOR]

MY BAD!

Tsk, tsk, tsk!!!

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[quote="Momma Angel"

Quote:

When you lobby to restrict their human rights, how can you that you do not treat them differently. You appear to be in deep denial.

I fear we will never reach an agreement here. We are told in the Bible to admonish one another. Just because I lobby for something I feel is right, does not mean that I am trying to do anything other than stand up for what I believe. I am sorry that you do not understand how I can do this and still care about the person as a child of God and an individual.[/quote]

Mesquite...

...of course MA "treats" homosexuals differently by her actions.

She may be right...the Bible may, in fact, tell Christians to "admonish one another"...

...but I think that same Bible also admonishes them to tell the truth.

And the statement that she made about treating homosexuals just like everyone else simply is not true.

I do agree with her that you and she will never reach agreement on this....and I think we both know why. (All said as courteously and respectfully as possible to all concerned, of course.)

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OK Snood and Frank- I have been reading the last few pages,and I feel like barfing. Cut the "gramps" and "lad" crap. It adds nothing, and simply superimposes a prejudical and hostile tone. It also cuts the credibility of both of you, in terms of you having an "intellectual" discussion!!!!!

And yes, I WAS the one who mentioned "pissing contests".

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Quote:

2 Corinthians 6

14. Do not try to work together as equals with unbelievers, for it cannot be done. How can right and wrong be partners? How can light and darkness live together?
15. How can Christ and the Devil agree? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
16. How can God's temple come to terms with pagan idols? For we are the temple of the living God! As God himself has said,
"I will make my home with my people
and live among them;
I will be their God,
and they shall be my people."
17. And so the Lord says,
"You must leave them
and separate yourselves from them.
Have nothing to do with what is unclean,
and I will accept you.
18. I will be your father,
and you shall be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty."

As I have mentioned in the past, I am not terribly conversant in the passages from the Bible, especially the NT. I found this quote on another religion thread, and was absolutely appalled.

But now I understand.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite Wrote:
Quote:
When you lobby to restrict their human rights, how can you that you do not treat them differently. You appear to be in deep denial.

I fear we will never reach an agreement here. We are told in the Bible to admonish one another. Just because I lobby for something I feel is right, does not mean that I am trying to do anything other than stand up for what I believe. I am sorry that you do not understand how I can do this and still care about the person as a child of God and an individual.

I can relate to that. I feel bound by my own sense of decency and morality to point out hypocrisy and bigotry whenever I encounter it.

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mesquite, Amen!

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Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

I can relate to that. I feel bound by my own sense of decency and morality to point out hypocrisy and bigotry whenever I encounter it.

Mesquite, because I do not want to make assumptions here, are you implying that I am being hypocritical and a bigot when it comes to this issue? I will await your answer before I reply.

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IMO

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MommaAngel wrote:

But let me be very clear on something, Mesquite. While I do believe homosexuality is a sin, I do not treat homosexuals any differently than I would anyone else. I may not agree with what they do, but the judgement is up to God, not to me. I am to treat everyone as I would have them treat me, and I try very, very hard to adhere to this always.

MommaAngel wrote:

First of all, you assume "....a mean spirited attack against a class of people...." Mean spirited? Because I disagree about homosxuality?

Oh, so would it make you feel I was being less "hypocritical" if I lobbied to have the laws changed to allow for legal punishment of the act? The punishment for this sin is not up to me or any other human being. It is up to God.

If we lobby for this law, part of it is stating we believe the sex act is wrong, and if we believe the sex act is wrong, we are not going to condone it by making it legal to marry the same sex.

MA- Take a look at these two quotes of yours. First, you say:

Momma Angel wrote:

I do not treat homosexuals any differently than I would anyone else.

Yet on the other hand, you would lobby to deprive them of the same rights that the rest of us have.

Momma Angel wrote:

......the judgement is up to God, not to me.

If the judgement is up to "God" then why are you lobbying to affect man's law? I think that there is a word for what you are attempting to do. I believe that it begins with an h................

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Mesquite and Phoenix,

I have tried to explain to you how I can "hate the sin and not the sinner" and as of yet, have been unable to do so. So, I did a bit of research to see if I could find a better explanation than I have provided. I hope that the following will help clear this up.

Many Christians use the cliché "Love the sinner, hate the sin." However, we must realize that this is an exhortation to us as imperfect human beings. The difference between us and God in regard to loving and hating is vast. Even as Christians, we remain imperfect in our humanity and cannot love completely, nor can we hate without malice. But, God can do both of these perfectly well, because He is God! God can hate without any sinful intent at all. Therefore, he can hate the sin and the sinner in a perfectly holy way and still be willing to lovingly forgive at the moment of that sinner's repentance and faith. (See Malachi 1:3; Revelation 2:6; 3 Peter 3:9) Mysterious, but true, God can perfectly love and hate a person at the same time. This means He can love them as someone He created and can redeemable, as well as hate them for their unbelief and sinful lifestyle. We, as imperfect human beings, cannot do this, thus we must remind ourselves to "love the sinner, hate the sin."

How exactly does that work? We hate sin by refusing to take part in it and by condemning it when we see it. Sin is to be hated, not excused or taken lightly. We love the sinner by being faithful in witnessing to them of the forgiveness that is available through Jesus Christ. A true act of love is treating someone with respect and kindness even though they know you do not approve of their lifestyle and/or choice. It is not loving to allow a person to remain stuck in sin. It is not hateful to tell a person they are in sin. In fact, the exact opposites are true.

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Momma Angel- You still haven't explained how you don't treat ,homosexuals any differently than anyone else. yet you would lobby to deprive them of rights that other people have. Also, if the "judgement" is up to God, what is your rationale to attempt to affect man's law?

MommaAngel wrote:

It is not loving to allow a person to remain stuck in sin. It is not hateful to tell a person they are in sin. In fact, the exact opposites are true.

But this so-called "sin" is simply something that is considered inappropriate behavior by your religion. What if that person does not ascribe to YOUR particular religious beliefs? Or are you saying that the rules of your religion need to apply to everyone? I thought it was your God, who, IYO, was the one to make the judgements?

Momma- You care contradicting yourself, big time. Why don't you tell it like it is? The truth of what you are attempting to do? Or are you in such denial that you can't see it for yourself?

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Phoenix Wrote:

Quote:

Momma Angel- You still haven't explained how you don't treat ,homosexuals any differently than anyone else. yet you would lobby to deprive them of rights that other people have. Also, if the "judgement" is up to God, what is your rationale to attempt to affect man's law?

Phoenix, I can explain to you how I do not treat anyone differently, whether I agree with ANYTHING they do in their life. I posted something earlier (the research I did) that explained my "rationale" to attempt to affect man's law.

I believe we are all children of God, created by God. We are all to treat each other with respect and dignity. I know people that have told lies, people who have stolen, who were active drug addicts, active alcoholics, etc. Everyone sins. It is as simple as that. But, just because a person sins, it does not give me the right to be mean to them, call them names, cause them bodily harm, etc. My beliefs are well-known by those I associate with. Now, if one of my friends does something that I do not agree with or I think is just wrong, I have no problem expressing this opinion to them. However, I do everything I can to make them understand it in NO WAY changes the way I feel about them as a person. I do not know how to explain it any more than that. I have friends that are homosexual. They know how I feel about it. We have discussed it. We have come to an understanding about it. That is their decision. They understand that I believe it is wrong and they understand why I do not want same sex marriage to be legal. They do not feel I am infringing on their rights.

We have only had these forums in which you and I have discussed this issue. I cannot see your face and your eyes any more than you can mine. Unfortunately, it is very hard to convey in these posts one's heartfelt feelings, as body language, eye contact, etc., have a great deal to do with communication.

And I do have to disagree with you on "this is simply something that is considered inappropriate behavior by your religion." It is not just my faith that considers this a sin. There are many others that feel the same and I personally know of people that practice no faith and feel the same way.

I am not making a judgement. I am going by what the Bible says, and according to the Bible, it is a sin.

And Phoenix, I am not contradicting myself. I am telling you exactly how it is. You are either not understanding or accepting it as to what I truly feel and believe.

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MommaAngel wrote:

And I do have to disagree with you on "this is simply something that is considered inappropriate behavior by your religion." It is not just my faith that considers this a sin. There are many others that feel the same and I personally know of people that practice no faith and feel the same way.

Is the evaluation of an act, or a lifestyle a popularity contest? In the case of homosexuality, the lifestyle concerns consenting adults. It affects no one else but the people involved, unless other people choose not to mind their own business.

I could go back to the old example, slavery. It is condoned in your Bible, and some years ago, was considered perfectly acceptable by many people. There is one major conceptual difference between slavery and homosexuality. One is consensual by all parties involved, and one is not. Period.

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Amazing....isn't it, Phoenix!

Despite the fact that it is absolutely, patently obvious that MA DOES treat homosexuals differently...and despite the fact that you have demonstrated conclusively that she does....she is determined to maintain that she doesn't.

She wrote:

Quote:

Phoenix, I can explain to you how I do not treat anyone differently, whether I agree with ANYTHING they do in their life.

Well...since you cannot get her to see the (bright) light with regard to her treatment of homosexuals by her conduct to limit their rights...perhaps you can open her eyes by asking if she applies this bit of philosophy to me.

She does not agree with me. Does she treat me differently from the others here?

She wrote:

Quote:

I believe we are all children of God, created by God. We are all to treat each other with respect and dignity. I know people that have told lies, people who have stolen, who were active drug addicts, active alcoholics, etc. Everyone sins. It is as simple as that. But, just because a person sins, it does not give me the right to be mean to them, call them names, cause them bodily harm, etc. My beliefs are well-known by those I associate with. Now, if one of my friends does something that I do not agree with or I think is just wrong, I have no problem expressing this opinion to them. However, I do everything I can to make them understand it in NO WAY changes the way I feel about them as a person.

Gosh...it is wonderful to know that MA is such an understanding person...that my conduct in NO WAY changes the way she feels about me.

But wait!!!

Does she treat me the same as all the rest...or does she treat me differently...DESPITE ALL HER PROTESTS TO THE CONTRARY?

I gotta be honest with you, Phoenix...I think MA does treat me differently. I think my conduct has changed the way she feels about me.

In fact, I think (with all the respect and civility possible in such a circumstance) that she is full of baloney!

Maybe, Phoenix...if you open her eyes about MA vis-a-vis Yours Truly...she might finally be able to lift the veil from her eyes on the question of her actions with regard to homosexuals.

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well, just to put this all in proper perspecitve, I hate them faggots, yeah, and I hate Frank Apisa. too. The bottom line (lol) is that faggots are queers and queers are an abomination in the eyes of the lord every bit as much as agnostics are. So, the only resonable course of action we can take is give them faggots and queers and agnostics all the rights we have and let the bastards suffer every damn much as we righteous folk do. Hell, not only let them marry, lets make them marry. The dirty little queers will self-destruct in just one generation (they're sterile you know) and as for the agnostics lets make them have their own church and not charge them one wit in taxes and let them become so courrupted in tax-dodging money laundering that all their time will be spent with expensive CPA's and reps from the Bush admin securing faith-based tax monies. They will keep them on the streets and off of a2k for years to come.

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Hi Frank, you still own me dinner next time we are in the city.

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Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

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