Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

From Intrepid

Other than Adam and Eve I can only think of Hagar, Jacob and Moses being in the company of God here on earth. See the following passages.

Genesis 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
13 And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.

Exodus 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Shock...in case you missed it, Intepid offered a passage that shows that the god of the Bible...while on the scene...specifically states that all the material Moses gets from the god...will be given with the god in a face to face meeting with Moses.

That means that...as I noted earlier....the god is essentially on the scene during each of the offerings in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

And I hope that you eventually get around rebutting my list of verses of an active good God, by providing some evidence (via words in the Bible) to support your ad nauseum and unsupportable argument that "the god is simply given credit for what happens".

I can only conclude that you refuse to do so because you can't. Therefore, I toss out the challenge to any of the other agnostics/atheists on this thread...

What "proof" would satisfy you?

Frank Apisa wrote:

Shock...in case you missed it, Intepid offered a passage that shows that the god of the Bible...while on the scene...specifically states that all the material Moses gets from the god...will be given with the god in a face to face meeting with Moses.

That means that...as I noted earlier....the god is essentially on the scene during each of the offerings in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

Frank,

I never disputed that God was not on the scene in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, other than as a foil to point out your own inconsistencies.

And I hope that you eventually get around rebutting my list of verses of an active good God, by providing some evidence (via words in the Bible) to support your ad nauseum and unsupportable argument that "the god is simply given credit for what happens".

I can only conclude that you refuse to do so because you can't. Therefore, I toss out the challenge to any of the other agnostics/atheists on this thread...

On pg 51 of this thread I provided a list of verses that showed a good God working in the lives of people

In each verse, I contend God is active, on the scene, and doing good things...Since Frank seems unable to...I challenge anyone else who thinks they might be able to give Frank some support for his contention that this is "simply god being given credit". Like Frank is wont to do, I ask that you support your contention with specific bible references.

Phoenix, It's obvious to me christians have a "blind spot" in their thinking; they think their love and god's love implores them to dictate how other people should live. They do everything they can to impose their religious' belief on others, but they don't see it that way. That's the "blind spot." It defies logic and common sense; that's what makes their religion frightening for the rest of us - and that includes all my siblings.

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In each verse, I contend God is active, on the scene, and doing good things...Since Frank seems unable to...I challenge anyone else who thinks they might be able to give Frank some support for his contention that this is "simply god being given credit". Like Frank is wont to do, I ask that you support your contention with specific bible references.

Ge 20:17
Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore children.

Ge 24:1 Now Abraham was old, advanced in age; and the LORD had blessed Abraham in every way.

Ge 25:11
It came about after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac; and Isaac lived by Beer-lahai-roi.

Ge 25:21
Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD answered him and Rebekah his wife conceived.

Ge 26:12
Now Isaac sowed in that land and reaped in the same year a hundredfold *. And the LORD blessed him,

Ge 29:31
Now the LORD saw that Leah was unloved, and He opened her womb, but Rachel was barren.

Ge 30:17
God gave heed to Leah, and she conceived and bore Jacob a fifth son

Ge 39:3
Now his master saw that the LORD was with him and how the LORD caused all that he did to prosper in his hand.

Ge 39:21
But the LORD was with Joseph and extended kindness to him, and gave him favor in the sight of the chief jailer *.

Ex 14:19
The angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind * them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before * them and stood behind * them.

Jos 4:14
On that day the LORD exalted Joshua in the sight of all Israel; so that they revered him, just as they had revered Moses all the days of his life .

Jud 15:19
But God split the hollow place that is in Lehi so that water came out of it. When he drank, his strength returned and he revived . Therefore * he named * it En-hakkore, which is in Lehi to this day.

Sa 23:14
David stayed in the wilderness in the strongholds, and remained in the hill country in the wilderness of Ziph. And Saul sought him every day, but God did not deliver him into his hand.

2Sa 5:12
And David realized that the LORD had established him as king over Israel, and that He had exalted his kingdom for the sake of His people Israel.

1Ki 4:29
Now God gave Solomon wisdom and very great discernment and breadth of mind, like the sand that is on the seashore *.

2Ch 36:15
The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;

Da 1:9
Now God granted Daniel favor and compassion in the sight of the commander of the officials,

Da 1:17
As for these four youths, God gave them knowledge and intelligence in every branch of literature and wisdom; Daniel even understood all kinds of visions and dreams.

Da 6:22
"My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths and they have not harmed me, inasmuch * * as I was found innocent before Him; and also toward you, O king, I have committed no crime."

Jon 3:10
When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.

Jon 4:6
So the LORD God appointed a plant and it grew up over * Jonah to be a shade over his head to deliver him from his discomfort . And Jonah was extremely * happy about the plant.

Joh 1:6
There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Ac 19:11
God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,

Don't try to bluster your way through this, Shock. I've gone through this with many, many folks who had a much better command of all this than you.

I have challenged every Christian (they claim the god is kind, compassionate, and loving of humankind) to offer passages that show their god to be possessed of those qualities rather than the qualities I say it displays. I've asked all of them to offer passages where the god is on the scene and is not threatening someone, killing someone, finding fault with someone, or asking someone to kill others.

Mark 12:30-31 (New International Version)

30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[a] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these

Matthew 5:43-46
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?

Luke 6:27
Love for Enemies
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

No one said that you did not have the legal right, just that it was hypocritical to claim that you follow the words of Jesus when you do so.

I did a bit of research on that because I do not believe it is hypocritical to lobby the law and follow Jesus. This is what I came up with.

One more time. I think that you motivation is to superimpose your religious beliefs through changes in the law, so that ALL Americans have to behave in a way the your religion (or your particular definition of your religion) deems acceptable.

Remember if gay people are allowed to legally marry, if people are allowed to have abortions, YOU and your religious compatriots are not obliged to marry someone of the same sex or have an abortion. But you, with all your talk of God's "love", you would think it moral to have the law dictate to other people how to live THEIR lives.

Phoenix, It's obvious to me christians have a "blind spot" in their thinking; they think their love and god's love implores them to dictate how other people should live. They do everything they can to impose their religious' belief on others, but they don't see it that way. That's the "blind spot." It defies logic and common sense; that's what makes their religion frightening for the rest of us - and that includes all my siblings.

won't even consider taking up that challenge until someone can prove to me that the Bible was written by anyone but primitive people.

It is God who has set forth the laws. If you don't like or believe in those laws, then that is your right. And, as long as YOU are willing to accept the consequences for YOUR actions, more power to you.

The hypocrisy enters the picture in this instance not because you are lobbying for a law, but rather what the law you are lobbying for is directed at.

You cannot rationally promote a law that is nothing more than a mean spirited attack against a class of people and say you are following the ways of Jesus. The many variations of proposed law against same sex marriage all do NOTHING to address the SEX ACT aspect of homosexuality.

If you want to ally yourself with the OT vengeful version of your God you would have a rational argument. You will also be allying with this attitude.

Hey look christians.

Dear, you are taking a lot for granted, and basing everything that you say on those premises

The hypocrisy enters the picture in this instance not because you are lobbying for a law, but rather what the law you are lobbying for is directed at.

You cannot rationally promote a law that is nothing more than a mean spirited attack against a class of people and say you are following the ways of Jesus. The many variations of proposed law against same sex marriage all do NOTHING to address the SEX ACT aspect of homosexuality.

If you want to ally yourself with the OT vengeful version of your God you would have a rational argument. You will also be allying with this attitude.

First of all, you assume "....a mean spirited attack against a class of people...." Mean spirited? Because I disagree about homosxuality?

Oh, so would it make you feel I was being less "hypocritical" if I lobbied to have the laws changed to allow for legal punishment of the act? The punishment for this sin is not up to me or any other human being. It is up to God.

If we lobby for this law, part of it is stating we believe the sex act is wrong, and if we believe the sex act is wrong, we are not going to condone it by making it legal to marry the same sex.

And Mesquite, please do not try to tell me who I would or would not be allying with. I have made it very clear where my allegiance lies. I do not prescribe to the tactics depicted in that picture. I have not once said anything to you or anyone else on this forum like that. God makes those judgements, I do not.