Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

Momma Angel wrote:

And, isn't that exactly what it means to believe in something? What good would faith be without the conviction to back it up?

You would be wise to look at that "phenomenon" as a strength in your sister and not a weakness.

Love your sister....love her dearly.

But whatever else you do...do not look at stone-headedness as a strength.

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Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

Did you catch the part where MA said that she knew squat about politics, but she does vote. She even hinted that she supports those thay display that they lead a god clean life. Any idea who she could be thinking of?

And your point is? And I did not hint at it. I try to be as informed as possible about a candidate. I, like anyone else, undoubtedly cannot know every single thing about them. I can, however, discern from their history whether or not I feel them to be the one I will cast my vote for or not.

And, Mesquite, everyone has skeletons in their closet. I don't discern from one act whether I feel someone is leading a (did you mean good or God? ) clean life. Just like everything else, you have to look at the bigger picture.

Oh, a question here. Since (it seems) some of you think I have such a closed mind ~ which I take to mean because I won't change my way of thinking to yours ~ does that mean your minds are closed shut too because you won't change your thinking to mine?

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Quote:

Oh, a question here. Since (it seems) some of you think I have such a closed mind ~ which I take to mean because I won't change my way of thinking to yours ~ does that mean your minds are closed shut too because you won't change your thinking to mine?

Personally, I'm inclined towards the concept that the actual issue is that some people think vs others who are too shrouded in faith to have room enough for thinking. But then, that's just the kinda of anti-christ I am.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

slkshock7 wrote:
Once again you've dismissed my response without a lick of substance to support your claim. You say these passages are people thanking God for healing, babies, etc. and that somehow each is not an act of God.

Earth calling Frank...Earth calling Frank...

How do you get that???? The verses are clear..."God healed...", "God sent...", etc.

The god was not on the scene doing the action.

A person has a baby...and claims "god have me the baby."

A person is healed...and claims "god healed me.

A great victory is won and lots of enemies are slaughtered...and the people claim that god have them the victory and helped them slaughter the enemy.

What good is that.

My original point is that whenever the god is on the scene...the god is there to punish, threaten, kill, or ask others to kill.

I challenged the Christians here to produce passages that show the god of the scene where the thrust of the action is not to punish, threaten, kill, or ask others to kill.

Produce passages like that...and stop pretending that you already have.

Frank,

I challenge you to show me in the passages I quoted where it says "so-and-so claims God gave me a baby" or "claims God helped me" or "claims God gave me a victory". No, each passage I quoted have the word God (or Lord) followed by an active verb.

This is no different than the Deuteronmy 20:10 verse which (if I've backtracked correctly) begins with the phrase "The Lord said..." or "The Lord wrote...

I'm quite surprised you've missed this very significant point. I've found you in the past to be quite precise in the verses you yourself quote.

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slkshock7 wrote:

[Frank,

I challenge you to show me in the passages I quoted where it says "so-and-so claims God gave me a baby" or "claims God helped me" or "claims God gave me a victory". No, each passage I quoted have the word God (or Lord) followed by an active verb.

This is no different than the Deuteronmy 20:10 verse which (if I've backtracked correctly) begins with the phrase "The Lord said..." or "The Lord wrote...

I'm quite surprised you've missed this very significant point. I've found you in the past to be quite precise in the verses you yourself quote.

Quote:

Ge 20:17
Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore children.

The god of the Bible is not on the scene. The god is being given credit for healing someone.

Quote:

Ge 24:1
Now Abraham was old, advanced in age; and the LORD had blessed Abraham in every way.

The god of the Bible is not on the scene. The god is simply being given credit for something that happened.

Quote:

Ge 25:11
It came about after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac; and Isaac lived by Beer-lahai-roi.

The god of the Bible is not on the scene. The god is simply being given credit for something that happened.

Quote:

Ge 25:21
Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD answered him and Rebekah his wife conceived.

The god of the Bible is not on the scene. The god is simply being given credit for something that happened.

Quote:

Ge 26:12
Now Isaac sowed in that land and reaped in the same year a hundredfold *. And the LORD blessed him,

The god of the Bible is not on the scene. The god is simply being given credit for something that happened.

Quote:

Ge 29:31
Now the LORD saw that Leah was unloved, and He opened her womb, but Rachel was barren.

Ge 30:17
God gave heed to Leah, and she conceived and bore Jacob a fifth son

Ge 39:3
Now his master saw that the LORD was with him and how the LORD caused all that he did to prosper in his hand.

Ge 39:21
But the LORD was with Joseph and extended kindness to him, and gave him favor in the sight of the chief jailer *.

Ex 14:19
The angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind * them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before * them and stood behind * them.

Jos 4:14
On that day the LORD exalted Joshua in the sight of all Israel; so that they revered him, just as they had revered Moses all the days of his life .

Jud 15:19
But God split the hollow place that is in Lehi so that water came out of it. When he drank, his strength returned and he revived . Therefore * he named * it En-hakkore, which is in Lehi to this day.

1Sa 23:14
David stayed in the wilderness in the strongholds, and remained in the hill country in the wilderness of Ziph. And Saul sought him every day, but God did not deliver him into his hand.

2Sa 5:12
And David realized that the LORD had established him as king over Israel, and that He had exalted his kingdom for the sake of His people Israel.

1Ki 4:29
Now God gave Solomon wisdom and very great discernment and breadth of mind, like the sand that is on the seashore *.

2Ch 36:15
The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;

Da 1:9
Now God granted Daniel favor and compassion in the sight of the commander of the officials,

Da 1:17
As for these four youths, God gave them knowledge and intelligence in every branch of literature and wisdom; Daniel even understood all kinds of visions and dreams.

Da 6:22
"My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths and they have not harmed me, inasmuch * * as I was found innocent before Him; and also toward you, O king, I have committed no crime."

Jon 3:10
When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.

Jon 4:6
So the LORD God appointed a plant and it grew up over * Jonah to be a shade over his head to deliver him from his discomfort . And Jonah was extremely * happy about the plant.

Joh 1:6
There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Ac 19:11
God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,

Same thing. No god on the scene.

C'mon, Shock.

I would not challenge anyone to produce passages from the Bible showing people giving the god of the Bible credit for doing this or doing that.

There are thousands of those kinds of passages.

Fact is...the first 200 pages of the Bible describe a god who, from the moment humanity set foot in its "creation"...the god was bothered by just about everything the humans did (except to grovel and suck up)...that the god constantly threatens, punishes, kills, and ask others to kill in its name.

The first 200 pages of the Bible describe a god on the scene...doing, acting, saying, commanding....and the god is a despicable, jealous, vengeful, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, psychotic, petty, tyrannical, retributive, murderous, barbarian.

The next 1000 pages are devoted to people giving the god credit for almost everything that ever happens....people sucking up to the god...grovelling before the god.

And for good reason. They had read the first 200 pages...and knew what kind of a monster they were dealing with. They thought they knew what would happen if they didn't suck up and grovel.

No, Shock...you have not met the challenge in any way.

But...if you'd still care to give it a shot...I'll be right here for you.

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Frank wrote:

At Deuteronomy 20:10 the god decrees:

"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you."

Two can play that game....In above passage, The god of the Bible is not on the scene. The god is simply being given credit for something that someone said.

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And lest I get accused of avoiding your questions, Shock...allow me to cover each one right now.

quote]I challenge you to show me in the passages I quoted where it says "so-and-so claims God gave me a baby"[/quote]

Sure. That is what is happening in this one: "Ge 25:21 Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD answered him and Rebekah his wife conceived.

The god is not on the scene...and the god is being given credit because someone got pregnant.

Quote:

... or "claims God helped me"

Almost all of them say that...but here is a specific: "Ge 24:1
Now Abraham was old, advanced in age; and the LORD had blessed Abraham in every way."

Quote:

...or "claims God gave me a victory"

Shock!!!! Gimme a break. You did read your own post, didn't you.

"Jos 4:14
On that day the LORD exalted Joshua in the sight of all Israel; so that they revered him, just as they had revered Moses all the days of his life . "

The entire book of Joshua is one continuous "god gave me a victory."

Quote:

No, each passage I quoted have the word God (or Lord) followed by an active verb.

Each passage, Shock, was an instance of something happening...and the god being given credit for it.

C'mon. The challenge is very clear that the god has to be on the scene...and that the thrust of the scene show the god being compassionate, understanding of the human predicament, humanity loving....and not be primarily about punishment, threats, killing, or ordering others kill in its name.

Produce one....

...if you can.

Quote:

This is no different than the Deuteronmy 20:10 verse which (if I've backtracked correctly) begins with the phrase "The Lord said..." or "The Lord wrote...

Actually...it is considerably different. CONSIDERABLY!

In the instances you cited...the god is given credit for what is happening for almost no reason other than the people giving the credit want to give the god the credit.

In Deuteronomy it is specifically asserted that Moses is quoting the god directly.

They are different, Shock.

Quote:

I'm quite surprised you've missed this very significant point.

Nothing to miss. You've simply made a mistake.

Quote:

I've found you in the past to be quite precise in the verses you yourself quote.

Thank you. I try to be very precise. Actually...I often use to quote each passage from three different Bibles...a Catholic Bible...a Protestant Bible...and a Jewish one.

I've gotten away from that, because the differnces are minor...and insignificant to the general theme of each passage.

I am still interested in whether or not you can meet the challenge.

Gotta give you credit. At least you are trying.

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Frank,

Please be consistent....if you are going to say one place where it says "The Lord said....", then accept the other places in the Bible where it says "The Lord said..." or "The Lord healed..."

Do I have checkmate yet?

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slkshock7 wrote:

Frank wrote:
At Deuteronomy 20:10 the god decrees:

"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you."

Two can play that game....In above passage, The god of the Bible is not on the scene. The god is simply being given credit for something that someone said.

Well...the god is being directly quoted by Moses.

These are words actually spoken by the god to a human.

And the god was on the scene when the words were spoken.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite Wrote:And, Mesquite, everyone has skeletons in their closet. I don't discern from one act whether I feel someone is leading a (did you mean good or God? ) clean life. Just like everything else, you have to look at the bigger picture.

I wasn't speaking of skeletons in the closet. By the time the 2004 election rolled around the skeletons were in broad view and they were not old.

I prefer a leader that has a inquisitive mind, is knowledgeable about the decisions he makes and seeks information and advice of those with expertise, not one with a incurious closed mind, not one that surrounds himself with yes men and that is guided by voices in his head.

I will leave you with a few quotes to consider. I would hope that you read them carefully.

Norman Schwarzkoph knew it.

Quote:

n a 1996 Frontline Special on The Gulf War General Norman Schwarzkoph spoke these prophetic words.

Gen. NORMAN SCHWARZKOPF: On the question of going to Baghdad_ if you remember the Vietnam war, we had no international legitimacy for what we did. As a result, we, first of all, lost the battle in world public opinion. Eventually, we lost the battle at home.

In the Gulf war, we had great international legitimacy in the form of eight United Nations resolutions, every one of which said, "Kick Iraq out of Kuwait." Did not say one word about going into Iraq, taking Baghdad, conquering the whole country and- and hanging Saddam Hussein. That's point number one.

Point number two- had we gone on to Baghdad, I don't believe the French would have gone and I'm quite sure that the Arab coalition would not have gone. The coalition would have ruptured and the only people that would have gone would have been the United Kingdom and the United States of America.

And, oh, by the way, I think we'd still be there. We'd be like a dinosaur in a tar pit. We could not have gotten out and we'd still be the occupying power and we'd be paying 100 percent of all the costs to administer all of Iraq.

If Dubya had only listened to his father.

Quote:

In his memoir, "A World Transformed," written five years ago, George Bush Sr. wrote the following to explain why he didn't go after Saddam Hussein at the end of the Gulf War.

"Trying to eliminate Saddam...would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible.... We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq.... There was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land."

But he didn't.

Quote:

Asked by Woodward, an assistant managing editor at the Washington Post, if he had ever consulted the former president before ordering the invasion of Iraq, Bush replied that "he is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength; there is a higher father that I appeal to."

Nope, he went ahead anyway. They fired the generals that advised against invasion, or that advised for a larger invasion force to assure we could maintain the peace post invasion.

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You mean to say god gets all the credit for killing some 100,000 Iraqis?

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slkshock7 wrote:

Frank,

Please be consistent....if you are going to say one place where it says "The Lord said....", then accept the other places in the Bible where it says "The Lord said..." or "The Lord healed..."

Do I have checkmate yet?

Checkmate???

You haven't even made an opening move yet. All pawns are still in place. Knights also.

In the passages I cited...the god is quoted directly by Moses.

In the passages you cited...the god is simply given credit for what happens.

You see the difference. You are not stupid.

Acknowledge the obvious.

There is no way the challenge has to do with people giving credit for no real reason....and to suppose that equals Moses telling us directly what the god said to him directly...

...is silly.

And if you continue on this dead end...I will simply withdraw the Deuteronomy passages...and go to only passages where your god IS STILL ON THE SCENE...and doing its punishing, threatening, killing routine.

But the passages in Deuteronomy and Leviticus...definitely are direct words of the god.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Phoenix, I've heard my sister and many other christians say, they love homosexuals, but don't approve of their sin. If they love homosexuals, why are they trying to impose their religious beliefs on them? They want their cake and eat it too! We love you, but you can't have equal rights! We can discriminate against you, because the bible says so. Makes no sense at all.

CI,
What are you talking about? Are you going by what you see your sister-in-law dong, or are you going by factual information that you have witnessed or read about? If someone says they love homosexuals but don't approve of their sin...that is their right. If that someone then discriminates against them, they did not love them in the first place, did they. Christians do not determine who has equal rights, the politicians do that. What is the about wanting cake and eating it too. This really does not make any sense to me. No wonder you are so confused.

There is nothing wrong with loving the sinner and hating the sin. in fact, it is an admirable quality to love someone that many others would show disdain for. I could go on, but I have made my view known in earlier posts. Personally, and through my Church...we do not condemn homosexual persons. We do not agree with their choice, but it is their choice and we do no judge them. They would not be able to hold church office, but neither would an adulterer, a person co-habiting without benefit of marriage, a drinker etc. This is only because the clergy is expected to provide an example based on religious, moral and civil laws and those thinks that are considered to be "normal" by the populace.

We will never turn a homosexual person or any other person away from our doors. They just cannot run the house.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

"Her mind is absolutely closed tightly shut."

I see the same phenomenon in my sister. I can't get through to her no matter how hard I try. Their belief is stronger than a ten foot leaded vault; nothing penetrates.

The fact that you are "trying to get through to her" indicates that you think that she is wrong and you are right. Does there have to be a division of sides? Why is is ok for you to try to get through to her, but not ok for her to try to get through to you? Double standard?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:

And, isn't that exactly what it means to believe in something? What good would faith be without the conviction to back it up?

You would be wise to look at that "phenomenon" as a strength in your sister and not a weakness.

Love your sister....love her dearly.

But whatever else you do...do not look at stone-headedness as a strength.

So, Frank....this is a strength that you agree you do not have?

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mesquite wrote:

Hi Snood, good to see you are still with us.

Did you catch the part where MA said that she knew squat about politics, but she does vote. She even hinted that she supports those thay display that they lead a god clean life. Any idea who she could be thinking of?

I know squat about how to build a TV, but I do watch it.

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dyslexia wrote:

Quote:
Oh, a question here. Since (it seems) some of you think I have such a closed mind ~ which I take to mean because I won't change my way of thinking to yours ~ does that mean your minds are closed shut too because you won't change your thinking to mine?

Personally, I'm inclined towards the concept that the actual issue is that some people think vs others who are too shrouded in faith to have room enough for thinking. But then, that's just the kinda of anti-christ I am.

Is that really what you think?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

slkshock7 wrote:
Frank wrote:
At Deuteronomy 20:10 the god decrees:

"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you."

Two can play that game....In above passage, The god of the Bible is not on the scene. The god is simply being given credit for something that someone said.

Well...the god is being directly quoted by Moses.

These are words actually spoken by the god to a human.

And the god was on the scene when the words were spoken.

And how do you conclude that God (or as you like to say, the god) was on the scene? If I read my Bible correctly, Deuteronomy 20:10 comes in the middle of a long directive from Moses to the Israelites. Moses' speech begins in at Deut 10:12. Just earlier, in Deu 10:4, the Lord wrote out the Ten Commandments on stone for the second time.

My point is that there is no indication that this is Moses quoting God. Yes it is Moses instructing the Israelites on a long list of do's and don'ts, but the Bible most definitely does not say God was on the scene doing the talking, nor that Moses was quoting God. In fact, in Deu 10:11, God dismisses Moses off Mt Sinai. Do you think God followed Moses down the mountain and then stood by Moses' side as he gave the sermon to the Israelites?

Frank, Frank, Frank, your insistence in taking verses completely out of context is getting you into trouble.

And I hope you understand that I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here...(stupid me...of course you understand...you're the expert). Like Momma and others, I believe (although don't comprehend) that because the Bible is inspired, that Moses' sentiment here (and even in vs. 20:10) reflects God's sentiments as well. I just want you to acknowledge that there are more than one instances of God not acting in a "jealous, vengeful, retributive, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, abusive, tyrannical, duplicitous, petty, murderous and barbaric" manner.

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Intrepid, I know you can't see it, but there's a contradiction to christians who claim they love homosexuals, but work to deny them equal rights in this country. And your generality, "nothing wrong with loving the sinner and hating the sin" is based on myth. "Sin" is a creation of man in an attempt to identify what the christian god supposedly said. For many of us, we do not find homosexuality to be a sin or anything else that is considered bad or negative. That's only a christian mind-set. We have laws that most of us can agree on to keep society in check that is considered bad or negative to society. Please don't include on your list with "religious," moral and civil laws. If past history of what christians have done in the past is any indication of what we can expect from christians in the future, "moral and civil laws" in relation to your religion is an oxymoron - so please stop preaching to us about morals and ethics. We'll do just fine without christians.

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Ah Intrepid, My Mentor!

So simply stated and yet so profound.

Mesquite, I will not discuss politics, especially those concerning the war in Iraq.

slkshock7,

As I see it, there are no chinks in your armor. You have many soldiers in this army. Just don't expect to see a flag of surrender anytime soon.

I am learning from your posts, even if some others aren't, and I thank you for that!

Momma Angel

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Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

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