Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

Phoenix, I've heard my sister and many other christians say, they love homosexuals, but don't approve of their sin. If they love homosexuals, why are they trying to impose their religious beliefs on them? They want their cake and eat it too! We love you, but you can't have equal rights! We can discriminate against you, because the bible says so. Makes no sense at all.

0 Replies

Quote:

Separation of church and state is the only principle that can ensure religious and philosophical freedom for all Americans. Church-state separation does not mean hostility toward religion. Rather, it means that the government will remain neutral on religious questions, leaving decisions about God, faith and house of worship attendance in the hands of its citizens.

http://www.au.org/site/PageServer

Are you familiar with "Americans United for Separation of Church and State?" I believe that the head of that organization is a Christian minister.

0 Replies

Phoenix...ci....

...MA's notion of compromise is as distorted and disjointed as her defense of religion and Christianity.

You are barking up the wrong tree by using reason and logic to penetrate her defenses and denial.

But I admire your attempts.

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

Phoenix, I've heard my sister and many other christians say, they love homosexuals, but don't approve of their sin. If they love homosexuals, why are they trying to impose their religious beliefs on them? They want their cake and eat it too! We love you, but you can't have equal rights! We can discriminate against you, because the bible says so. Makes no sense at all.

Since 100% of all Christians have to base their convictions that homosexual conduct is wrong on a single passage from the Bible...

...and the passages and tradition that derive from that single passage...

...they are left with the unanswerable question:

Why are you so sure part of that one passage is worth going to the mattresses for...and part can simply be disregarded?

Here is the instant passage in its entirety:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

In fact, considering all the "tolerance" being preached by the Christians on this issue...."disregarded" puts the situation too mildly.

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

Phoenix, I've heard my sister and many other christians say, they love homosexuals, but don't approve of their sin. If they love homosexuals, why are they trying to impose their religious beliefs on them? They want their cake and eat it too! We love you, but you can't have equal rights! We can discriminate against you, because the bible says so. Makes no sense at all.

Since 100% of all Christians have to base their convictions that homosexual conduct is wrong on a single passage from the Bible...

...and the passages and tradition that derive from that single passage...

...they are left with the unanswerable question:

Why are you so sure part of that one passage is worth going to the mattresses for...and part can simply be discarded.

Here is the instant passage in its entirety:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

0 Replies

Phoenix Wrote:

Quote:

Re God's laws: They seem to be rather elusive to me. First we see all that horrific stuff in the OT, but then wait... after Jesus came then everything changed... but wait don't take his commandments out of the court room...gays are people that do bad bad things.

Do you have a list of what you consider to be the applicable God's laws? You see that comment "If those laws are in conflict I defer to God's laws" bothers me some because there are a whole bunch of laws that are considered God's laws and more than a few of them have prescribed punishments. Opinions as to which of those laws and punishments are still applicable seems to vary from all to none.

Phoenix, we ALL do bad things. Liars lie, cheaters cheat, murderers murder, and on and on. I have told you, and others, over and over again. The basic gospel has not changed. There are basic rights and wrongs. Why is that so hard to understand? Oh and Phoenix, there are consequences for breaking any of God's laws not just more than a few. There are also consequences for breaking man's laws. And yes, opinions vary greatly. They always have and always will.

Phoenix Wrote:

Quote:

You certainly have a propensity for using strawmen. Video games are for entertainment. They are not something that foisted upon young minds as touted as reality and as guidance to pattern your life by.

Ah, I see. Well, what about all the crimes that have been committed and have used these video games, etc., as a defense? Now, to me, they shouldn't be used as a defense. Just like the Bible, everyone that reads it has the option of believing, doing as it says, etc., as long as they are willing to take the responsibility for it. Is this not the case? Cannot it be said that some read the Bible for entertainment? It seems to entertain quite a few of you. Straw men? Whatever. The facts are the facts. There are misinterpretations of everything. Always will be.

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

These things are running rampant in our society? You think they are something new? Are you speaking of numbers of incidents or as a percent of population?

Just because communication is more rapid now, and mass media focuses on stories with shock value does not mean there is any increase in per capita incidence.

Even if statistics did show an increase, how would that correlate to moral standards?

I am so totally astounded here I just can't tell you. You seem to be justifying the increasing crime rate just because the population has risen?

Remember Jim Jones? How shocked were you? Well, now we have thousands being wiped out! Oh, so what? It just seems it's become more common because of the media and there are more people? Sure, it looks that way. But, what is the underlying factor here? It is man doing what man wants to do with no real understanding of the consequences. It's man putting man before himself. Someone gets fired and they go and shoot up a plant. A child is ridiculed at school and blows away classmates and teachers. It's man doing what man wants to do. It is not man doing what God says He should do. I cannot state it any clearer than that. And if you cannot see how moral standards correlate, well, I am speechless.

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

I think it is times such as this when Frank's vocabulary picks up a notch. You seem to have a total mental block on this issue and have no grasp whatsoever of the value of separation of church and state. You seem to not be able to understand that such a concept is what allows you to be able to do and believe as you wish.

What I understand is this. If a politician is leading a good and decent moral life (please don't ask whose right it is to judge. It is my right to discern and make decisions from that discernment), then I would trust him in a political office than I would someone that I discern to not be living a good and decent moral life. Make it simple (and yes, rather ridiculous) but I wouldn't vote for a murder, just as I did not vote for David Duke here in Louisiana because he is a member of the KKK.

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

Expletives deleted.

And, I thank you for that. I appreciate the courtesy that you show me and that is why I do not mind engaging in discussion with you. :wink:

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

Why on earth would you need a special room for silent prayer. It sounds to me as though you are more interested in the display of prayer than the act itself.

By your analogy we should also allow the installation of loudspeakers throught our towns so that Muslims would be able to announce their call to prayer.

No, what I am interested in is a compromise. You don't want prayer in school. I do. So, if it is offensive for others to pray in your face, as you have put it, then let us have a room that we can go to and not be in your face. That way, your rights are not violated, and neither are mine. There is a choice offered. If you want to pray, fine, then go to this room. If you don't want to pray, then fine, don't go there and do it.

And how in the world do you get I think we should install loudspeakers. Did I not say silent prayer? This allows me to have what I want and also allows you to have what you want.

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

It's about following the constitution.

Well, that would mean our interpretations differ? Another can of worms, I suspect. Again, you seem to want it all your way. I want it so we can all live with a compromise acceptable to both sides.

0 Replies

Momma Angel wrote:

I, as one of those Christians, continually ask why we cannot find a compromise? A way to make it acceptable to both sides? I offered a compromise to the Non-Christians/Non-Religious on that. Received some acceptance of that. That's a start.

Now, what about a compromise on taking religious artifacts, such as the Ten Commandments, etc., out of public buildings? I offered a compromise on that. I don't recall hearing anything about the compromise I offered here.

Your idea of a compromise was to leave the Ten Commandments hanging on the court house wall and anyone that did not like it does not have to look at it.

A real compromise would be to put up another plaque next to the Ten Commandments which read:

The Ten Commandments is honoring a mythical character.

This is unacceptable in my presence.

I am The Invisible Pink Unicorn

The invisible Pink Unicorns, or I.P.U's are the true masters and creators of the universe.

They existed before anything existed.

They even existed before they existed.

There is no possible way for me to explain how this is possible.

We just have to be content with the knowledge that Invisible Pink Unicorns exist, and they are beyond our ability to comprehend.

Then if you do not like the IPU plaque you do not have to look at it or read it.

Momma Angel wrote:

The Non-Christians/Non-Religious say that same sex marriages should be allowed. The Christians say it should not. I answered that we both have the rights to our beliefs and to lobby for the law. If the Non-Christians/Non-Religious get their wish, then that just makes it legal. However, I have the right to not believe it is morally right. What's wrong with that? What I consistently hear is that the Christians/Religious are imposing on your freedoms. Duh! All we are doing is what you are doing. Fighting for what you believe is right. So, if your side triumphs and the law is changed to permit same sex marriages why do you care that there are those out there that believe it is morally wrong?

I am not sure if you are being disingenuous or just ignorant of the facts. The religious right, which you apparently support, backed by President Bush is pressing for a constitutional amendment to define marriage and prevent the possibility of states adopting their own laws on this issue. It would be the first time in our nations history that a constitutional amendment has been proposed to limit rather than expand human rights. You should be downright proud NOT!

0 Replies

Phoenix Wrote:

Quote:

Re God's laws: They seem to be rather elusive to me. First we see all that horrific stuff in the OT, but then wait... after Jesus came then everything changed... but wait don't take his commandments out of the court room...gays are people that do bad bad things.

Do you have a list of what you consider to be the applicable God's laws? You see that comment "If those laws are in conflict I defer to God's laws" bothers me some because there are a whole bunch of laws that are considered God's laws and more than a few of them have prescribed punishments. Opinions as to which of those laws and punishments are still applicable seems to vary from all to none.

Momma Angel wrote
Phoenix, we ALL do bad things. Liars lie, cheaters cheat, murderers murder, and on and on. I have told you, and others, over and over again. The basic gospel has not changed. There are basic rights and wrongs. Why is that so hard to understand? Oh and Phoenix, there are consequences for breaking any of God's laws not just more than a few. There are also consequences for breaking man's laws. And yes, opinions vary greatly. They always have and always will.

Phoenix Wrote:

Quote:

You certainly have a propensity for using strawmen. Video games are for entertainment. They are not something that foisted upon young minds as touted as reality and as guidance to pattern your life by.

Momma Angel wrote:

Ah, I see. Well, what about all the crimes that have been committed and have used these video games, etc., as a defense? Now, to me, they shouldn't be used as a defense. Just like the Bible, everyone that reads it has the option of believing, doing as it says, etc., as long as they are willing to take the responsibility for it. Is this not the case? Cannot it be said that some read the Bible for entertainment? It seems to entertain quite a few of you. Straw men? Whatever. The facts are the facts. There are misinterpretations of everything. Always will be.

Where did I write THAT? If you quote, Momma Angel, make sure that you are quoting the correct individual.

0 Replies

I am done for a while. My forehead is beginning to bleed.

Frank? Set? c.i.? Phoenix?

0 Replies

Yeah, Mesquite- It is becoming very wearying to attempt to discuss with logic and reason, when there is none at the receiving end

0 Replies

The problem is that one side believes what they read in a book that we don't really know the origin of. Anyways, in the subject of video games, some games are really pushing it. Whereas the usual game would contain moral (such as the good guy vs. bad guy), some games encourage one to be the violent maniac.

0 Replies

Phoenix,

Please accept my apology. You did not make the comment about my propensity for strawmen. That was Mesquite. I have Care Angels Imming me while I am trying to type and I made a mistake. I do apologize.

Look, all of you, the plain and simple facts are these:

I believe what I believe.

You believe what you believe.

We both have the right to believe what we believe.

We both have the right to lobby for our beliefs to be upheld.

We, do not, however, have the right to ridicule, discriminate, and/or harm anyone because they do not agree with us.

I have not insulted any of you for your beliefs, nor will I. If you ask me questions, I answer them to the best of my ability, just as I believe you are doing.

I have offered compromises and you do not accept them. I say put the artifacts in a room for those that want to see them there. You want them not there period. That is not a compromise. Then I am offered the Pink Unicorn Plaque? If it's unacceptable in your presence, then put it in a room so you are not in it's presence. That puts the choice back on you so you can assert your right and does not take away mine.

And who are you to tell me what I should or should not be proud of? You think I should be proud of the fact that something I know to be a sin in God's eyes is trying to be made legal by man's laws? This is what I think NOT!

0 Replies

Ray wrote:

The problem is that one side believes what they read in a book that we don't really know the origin of. Anyways, in the subject of video games, some games are really pushing it. Whereas the usual game would contain moral (such as the good guy vs. bad guy), some games encourage one to be the violent maniac.

I agree with you Ray that there is a problem with some video games. At the same time one does not need to be a rocket scientist nor a Bible thumper to recognize that fact.

0 Replies

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

I agree with you Ray that there is a problem with some video games. At the same time one does not need to be a rocket scientist nor a Bible thumper to recognize that fact.

Excuse me, but did I not state something along these same lines?

Momma Angel Wrote:

Quote:

Just like the Bible, everyone that reads it has the option of believing, doing as it says, etc., as long as they are willing to take the responsibility for it.

0 Replies

No one is going to get through to MA. She is in such deep denial....she simply cannot allow reason or logic to interfere.

She keeps talking about "God's laws"...and "sin"...as though she actually knows there is a God...and that the God has expectations of humans and has revealed those expectations.

She simply cannot see...or acknowledge that all this is nothing more than a bunch of guesses...that have virtually nothing of any probative value backing them up.

She cannot!

She guesses there is a God.

She guesses the God has expectations of us...and that the God "revealed" those expectations to a bunch of primative, ancient Hebrews.

Then she cloaks her baseless guesses in the word "belief"....and demands that people respect her "beliefs"....claiming, despite post after post showing her that it is absurd...that all "beliefs" ought be respected.

She then goes on to pick and choose chooses which of those (guessed) expectations are worthy of being met....and which she is free to completely disregard...

...and presents an incoherent rationalization for why this is consistent.

You folks are good, decent, well-intentioned people...but you are flying a kite to suppose these methods work with the likes of MA.

Her mind is absolutely closed tightly shut.

0 Replies

Quickly while waiting for the novacaine to take effect.

Momma Angel wrote:

And who are you to tell me what I should or should not be proud of? You would have me be proud that something I know to be a sin in God's eyes and is trying to be made legal by man's laws? This is what I think NOT!

Actually the act that you consider a sin is already legal in the US of A. What is being challenged is the right of two people that love one another to make a contractual bond. The sin that you are so obsessed with is not being addressed, so if you really love the sinner, not the sin, what is your problem?

I suspect just the same plain old bigotry that gave a pass to slavery and segregation.

0 Replies

Momma-

Illigitimus non Carborundum

0 Replies

"Her mind is absolutely closed tightly shut."

I see the same phenomenon in my sister. I can't get through to her no matter how hard I try. Their belief is stronger than a ten foot leaded vault; nothing penetrates.

0 Replies

Snood Wrote:

Quote:

Momma-

Illigitimus non Carborundum

Never fear! "He that is in me is stronger than he that is in the world!"

Cicerone Imposter Wrote:

Quote:

"Her mind is absolutely closed tightly shut."

I see the same phenomenon in my sister. I can't get through to her no matter how hard I try. Their belief is stronger than a ten foot leaded vault; nothing penetrates.

Yep, apology has definitely been withdrawn.

And, isn't that exactly what it means to believe in something? What good would faith be without the conviction to back it up?

You would be wise to look at that "phenomenon" as a strength in your sister and not a weakness.

0 Replies

Hi Snood, good to see you are still with us.

Did you catch the part where MA said that she knew squat about politics, but she does vote. She even hinted that she supports those thay display that they lead a god clean life. Any idea who she could be thinking of?

0 Replies

Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know