Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

husker, I'm just repeating what Momma said. I asked her "what the fxxx is that supposed to mean?" She never answered.

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Actually Cicerone and Frank, I answered both of you on page 22 of this thread.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Since your god suggests we slaughter all male inhabitants of land's we conquer and enslave all the women and children...my question for you poor picked-upon, persecuted Christians is...

...do you agree with your god? Is that the way we should handle our victories over adversaries?

Or is asking a question like this "persecuting you?"

Frank, Have any of these Christians been able to answer your question without creating page after page of bulls**t. Soon I'll have to assume they have no answer. Which is why the truly conscience seek the truth elsewhere.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Actually Cicerone and Frank, I answered both of you on page 22 of this thread.

No you didn't.

And despite whatever game you think you are playing...you are not nearly clever enough to pull something like this off.

I agree with Amigo. If any of you had an answer that made any sense...you would have posted it in large print and with bold lettering. (Can't wait to see what this elicits from these poor deluded souls.)

Their handling of this question is almost an exact duplicate of the way they handled my challenge to cite passages from the Bible showing the god being what they say the god is....rather than the way I say the god is.

Silly denial...even sillier excuse making...and dodging.

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Momma Angel Wrote:

Quote:

Amen loandoc!

And to answer your question Frank. No, we should not go and kill all the women and children and cattle, etc. when we are at war.

You seem to forget the times were far more primitive than our society and you always forget that once Christ came into the picture there was grace and salvation. But, we have told you that over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over...........

You may not like the answer Frank, but I gave you an answer.

Momma Angel Wrote:

Quote:

It has everything to do with it. Christians believe Jesus Christ is the Savior. Jews believe he was just a prophet and not the savior.

You might not like my answer either Mesquite, but I gave you an answer.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Momma Angel Wrote:

Quote:
Amen loandoc!

And to answer your question Frank. No, we should not go and kill all the women and children and cattle, etc. when we are at war.

You seem to forget the times were far more primitive than our society and you always forget that once Christ came into the picture there was grace and salvation. But, we have told you that over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over...........

You may not like the answer Frank, but I gave you an answer.

Whoa...I missed that.

Perhaps I missed it because it seemed to be a response directed to Doc...BUT I MISSED IT NO MATTER WHAT.

I was completely wrong....and you were completely correct.

You did answer my question.

I'll comment on the answer in a little while...but for this post, I want only to acknowledge that I was wrong...and that you were correct.

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So the word of God is primitive. Is that your answer? I thought that was part of franks point. Is Gods word law or not?

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Thank you for that Frank. I do appreciate you acknowledging that I did answer you.

Amigo, are you serious? Where did I say God was primitive? Did I not say the times were primitive? Don't put words in my mouth. Please do not do that.

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I think what Amigo was implying is that since the bible is supposedly the words of God, then the primitive things that were shown in the bible, God condones?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Momma Angel Wrote:

Quote:
Amen loandoc!

And to answer your question Frank. No, we should not go and kill all the women and children and cattle, etc. when we are at war.

You seem to forget the times were far more primitive than our society and you always forget that once Christ came into the picture there was grace and salvation. But, we have told you that over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over...........

You may not like the answer Frank, but I gave you an answer.

Momma Angel Wrote:

Quote:
It has everything to do with it. Christians believe Jesus Christ is the Savior. Jews believe he was just a prophet and not the savior.

You might not like my answer either Mesquite, but I gave you an answer.

Would you mind explaining to me what "grace and salvation" have to do with conduct of a war? It seems to me that those concepts have more to do with personal sin type forgiveness. Since the direction by God concerning treatment of war captives was given on more than one occasion, that eliminates the special circumstances excuse that some have used. I do not see you calling for the disregarding of of all Old Testament teachings, just those that are offensive to your 21st century world view.

As to your giving of answers, yes, you normally do provide one but quickly cut and run rather than try to support your position. If you truly felt that your position was supportable, then I assume you would tend to stick around more as you do on the abortion thread. By that statement I am not acknowledging that your abortion position is supportable, only that at least you believe that it is and are willing to defend it.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Thank you for that Frank. I do appreciate you acknowledging that I did answer you.

You are welcome.

Let me talk about your answer for a bit.

Quote:

...to answer your question Frank. No, we should not go and kill all the women and children and cattle, etc. when we are at war.

I agree. We should not do that when we are at war....and we should not do that after we gain a victory.

But the undeniable fact is that your god does not agree with either of us.

Your god is very, very specific about how it wants humans to procede in these situations. Here it is again:

"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you."

So...it is good you and I agree. It is not so good, from your standpoint....that your god does not agree with us.

Quote:

You seem to forget the times were far more primitive than our society...

I don't forget that at all...and in fact, it was even more than that. This particular bit of "advice" was being given by your god to a group of people who supposedly had just escaped from captivity in Egypt.

They were not in possession of any victories. Presumably, they didn't even have an army. They were a ragtag group of people working their way through the desert....and your god was giving them various guiding principles for them to use once they did get situated.

And the piece of advice he gave them for when they form an army...and when they attack an enemy....and when they win...

...is to kill EVERY MALE...and enslave every female and child.

Quote:

... and you always forget that once Christ came into the picture there was grace and salvation.

Well that may or may not be....but the fact remains that Jesus himself was very explicit in endorsing the Old Testament laws. He was not here to change them....and it is naive almost to the point of insanity to suggest that simply because Jesus came...all this stuff that the god was teaching no longer applies.

Even Paul doesn't suggest that. He pretty much confines himself (Paul) to saying that the dietary restrictions and circumcision no longer apply.

There is absolutely nothing to suppose your god doesn't want victory in war to be handled any way other than the way mentioned.

But I agree with what you said...and what you inferred.

This would be savagery on a monumental scale...and we ought to disregard the advise as being barbaric.

Quote:

But, we have told you that over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over...........

Yes you have. But you refuse to deal with the implications of what you are saying over and over and over and over.

The advice of the god of the Bible is savage and barbaric. It should be disregarded.

And anyone like you...who sees GOD as an understanding, compassionate, humanity loving GOD...should finally come to the realization that the god of the Bible is an imposter.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Thank you for that Frank. I do appreciate you acknowledging that I did answer you.

Amigo, are you serious? Where did I say God was primitive? Did I not say the times were primitive? Don't put words in my mouth. Please do not do that.

In the scripture from your bible (God) instructs that we force submission or murder man, moman and child without mercy. The defence was " Times were primitive". When the christian sword comes down on the child and he/she asks why. Do we say "Sorry kiddo, Times is primative."

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Mesquite,

I didn't mean to seem to cut and run on this thread. I just got involved in it after I got back from my trip.

I have tried explaining the resolution of the seeming conflicts of the Old Testament to the New and have yet been able to do it to the non-believers satisfaction.

Before Christ there was God and man. Man ran pretty rampant doing what he wanted to do and falling away from God. (Not all men.) God dealt very harshly with sinners. But, He still did forgive and gave man chances to redeem himself and do what was right and, if man didn't, he paid the price.

Once Christ came and taught and was crucified, He became our intercessory. He took all of our sins upon Himself and we are and were forgiven.

In the Old Testament days, God would speak to people (burning bush) and He sent angels to speak for him. He doesn't do that anymore. We have his Son. No one gets to the father save through the son. If you deny the Son, you deny the Father. Christ preaches of love and tolerance and helping each other. This is what I try to live by.

I know it is hard to understand the Old Testament. And God is very harsh in the Old Testament, but He is also very loving. I see Him that way but I realize there are many in this forum that do not.

And grace and salvation have everything to do with everything. I do not believe that God would want us taking slaves from war or killing all the children, etc. He offers everyone grace and salvation so I just can't see that He would want us to destroy cultures.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I know it is hard to understand the Old Testament. And God is very harsh in the Old Testament, but He is also very loving.

That is easy to say...but I defy you to find two passages that show the god in action...where his action can reasonably be inerpreted to be "loving"...as opposed to being threatening, killing, asking others to kill or anything like that.

There simply is no love to this god.

And this is, after all is said and done....THE GOD THAT JESUS WORSHIPPED. So you cannot get away from this god simply because Jesus came along.

Quote:

I see Him that way but I realize there are many in this forum that do not.

And I am one of them...for the reasons I just mentioned.

Quote:

And grace and salvation have everything to do with everything. I do not believe that God would want us taking slaves from war or killing all the children, etc. He offers everyone grace and salvation so I just can't see that He would want us to destroy cultures.

IF THERE IS A GOD....NEITHER DO I.

That is not the question, MA. We both agree that (if there is a God) the God would not want us to slaughter enemies after a victory...or to take their wives, daughters and little sons and hold them for the rest of their lives in slavery.

BUT YOU CANNOT GET AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT THE god OF THE BIBLE IS RECORDED AS SAYING:

"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you."

So which is it?

Are we both wrong about what GOD would be like?

Or is it that the god of the Bible is not GOD?

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I have given you my answer, Frank. I do not understand every single thing God does or says in the Bible. I have never claimed to.

All I can tell you is that God is perfect and man is not, so you have two ends of the spectrum. God is so perfect that if one were to look upon his face he would die. Now, when something is that perfect it's understandable, to me anyway, why He would deal harshly with those that sin against Him.

Does it appear God became less harsh in the New Testament? Yes, it does. But, I understand the concept of God giving us His Son to save us and you don't look at it the way I do. So, I don't see we can resolve anything there.

Amigo,

I am sorry if I misunderstood your post.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I have given you my answer, Frank. I do not understand every single thing God does or says in the Bible. I have never claimed to.

All I can tell you is that God is perfect and man is not, so you have two ends of the spectrum. God is so perfect that if one were to look upon his face he would die. Now, when something is that perfect i8it's understandable, to me anyway, why He would deal harshly with those that sin against Him.

Does it appear God became less harsh in the New Testament? Yes, it does. But, I understand the concept of God giving us His Son to save us and you don't look at it the way I do. So, I don't see we can resolve anything there.

If you could just stop being so terrified of this god of yours...you'd be able to see how absurd your reasoning is here.

IF....

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You said that GOD would never advocate the slaughter and enslavement of people.

The god of the Bible DOES advocate the slaughter and enslavement of people.

Either you are wrong that GOD would never do that...or the god of the Bible is not GOD.

You gotta deal with that, MA.

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Frank,

You are totally misinterpreting what I am saying.

First of all, I am not afraid of God. I do not want to displease Him, that is most definite. But, not because of being afraid of what He may retaliate with. I don't want to displease Him in the same way I don't want to displease my parents. It's not out of fear, it's out of respect.

When I said I didn't believe God would advocate the slaughter and enslavement of people I meant in today's times. Once Christ came into the picture it was all different. I can't explain that any better to you and I wish someone could.

You also need to keep in mind that we are to obey the laws of the land. Don't we have provisions in the Geneva Convention for how prisoners are treated?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite,

I didn't mean to seem to cut and run on this thread. I just got involved in it after I got back from my trip.

I have tried explaining the resolution of the seeming conflicts of the Old Testament to the New and have yet been able to do it to the non-believers satisfaction.

But MA the rule of thumb should not just be to non-believers satisfaction, the test should be whether the explanation can stand the light of day or withstand critical thought.

Momma Angel wrote:

Before Christ there was God and man. Man ran pretty rampant doing what he wanted to do and falling away from God. (Not all men.) God dealt very harshly with sinners. But, He still did forgive and gave man chances to redeem himself and do what was right and, if man didn't, he paid the price.

Once Christ came and taught and was crucified, He became our intercessory. He took all of our sins upon Himself and we are and were forgiven.

It is the above explanation that to me begs the question, "Why the change from a jealous, vengeful, barbaric god to an all forgiving loving god?" The explanation that you provided earlier was that there essentially was no change. You seem to swing back and forth about change, no change depending upon the question.

Momma Angel wrote:

In the Old Testament days, God would speak to people (burning bush) and He sent angels to speak for him. He doesn't do that anymore.

I rather think that this world is full of people that think God speaks to them. The difference is that now, we understand that these voices although very real to the people that hear them are in fact caused by mental illness. What amazes me is that we readily accept mental illness as a cause of godly voices today, while at the same time readily accept that they were genuine when coming from a much more primitive, less knowledgeable, and superstitious civilization.

Momma Angel wrote:

We have his Son. No one gets to the father save through the son. If you deny the Son, you deny the Father. Christ preaches of love and tolerance and helping each other. This is what I try to live by.

Yet you admit that you lobby against allowing same sex marriages.

Momma Angel wrote:

I know it is hard to understand the Old Testament. And God is very harsh in the Old Testament, but He is also very loving. I see Him that way but I realize there are many in this forum that do not.

Actually the only thing that is hard to understand about the Old Testament is how one could distort its clear message to one of love for humanity.

Momma Angel wrote:

I just can't see that He would want us to destroy cultures.

Yet that is very clearly what the god of the bible did over and over again.

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It's sort of like a bad marriage; the husband can beat the wife, then in the next minute make love. Sounds like a sick relationship no matter how you cut it.

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Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

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