Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

Quote:

We hear how the Christians are trying to push their Christian believes down everbody's throat. The fact that the non-believers are pushing even harder in the opposite direction garners nary a glance.

hogwash
It is, in the US of A, the "believers" that are fanatically trying to over-run the non-believers. The believers want their monuments, their commandments and their prayers imposed in everyone else's lives. The non-believers do not advocate restriction of "believers" rights, it's the other way around. Non-believers only ask that believers keep their beliefs within their own jurisdiciton and allow non-believers the same rights. Your (believers) 10 commandments are not everyone's commandments, we (americans) live in a secular, civil law society and desire it to remain so for the benefit of all. You (believers) can pray or chant or whatever you want to do but we (non-believers) don't want your crap in "our" ("our" being public society) court houses or laws or legal rights. Our public schools, our court houses, our ethics are dedicated to the premise that all mankind should be treated legally and civilly with equality and respect.

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snood wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:
explanation?
In my case, since I can't speak for anyone else, When I was a child I went to church of my own free will. I heard preachers put down atheists and non Christians repeatedly, without provocation. As my own sense of self, truth, whatever progressed, my path led away from the church and Christianity. The believers came at me continually, not wanting "No" for an answer. A simple "I don't want to attend your church" or "I don't believe in God" made them work all the harder to get me into the fold. I never really fought back until after I joined the Navy and certain of them kept at me. Then, it became fun arguing back, sort of like taunting a cocker spaniel that repeatedly snaps at your ankles. Lately, it's the fundies trying to make us have God in every aspect of public life keeps me arguing.

edgar, Isn't having contentious feelings toward the believers on A2K because of what the "fundies" are doing in the political arena a little silly?

Once again, Snood echoes my thought or I agree with his

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dyslexia wrote:

Quote:
We hear how the Christians are trying to push their Christian believes down everbody's throat. The fact that the non-believers are pushing even harder in the opposite direction garners nary a glance.

hogwash
It is, in the US of A, the "believers" that are fanatically trying to over-run the non-believers. The believers want their monuments, their commandments and their prayers imposed in everyone else's lives. The non-believers do not advocate restriction of "believers" rights, it's the other way around. Non-believers only ask that believers keep their beliefs within their own jurisdiciton and allow non-believers the same rights. Your (believers) 10 commandments are not everyone's commandments, we (americans) live in a secular, civil law society and desire it to remain so for the benefit of all. You (believers) can pray or chant or whatever you want to do but we (non-believers) don't want your crap in "our" ("our" being public society) court houses or laws or legal rights. Our public schools, our court houses, our ethics are dedicated to the premise that all mankind should be treated legally and civilly with equality and respect.

Tsk, tsk...is that the only line that you read, Dys? So, you are, in fact, saying that you do not agree with American Christians. The rest of us are ok? Or, do you have a disdain for all Christians regardless whether they are American or not? Do you equate Christians with taking away your rights? Doesn't your constitution guarantee that everybody has rights? Why do you and others always bring politics into it? Is that how you do it in the U.S. of A?

I was not discussing American politics. I was discussing discourse on this webside.

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You see, snood, you take the last part of a lifelong statement, ignoring the rest.

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Yeah Intrepid, I usually try to relate to what I know and what I know is about where I live. Perhaps you would prefer that our discourse focus on Mozambique?

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edgar,

I understand how you got to the point you say you are at. But, it's not what the world does to us that matters, it's what we do with it. Just because you (all of us) have had bad experiences with something, does that give us license to then act inappropriately?

If it did give us the license, I think the world would already be destroyed.

dys,

I'm not asking for anything I haven't had my whole life. God has been on our money, in our schools, in the courthouses before I was born. Why is it so hard to understand that I wouldn't want something taken away from me I have always had the right to have?

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Momma
I am not the one acting inappropriately. That's the crux of my gripe. Christians try to force their world upon us and are dumfounded that we resent it.

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MA, because it's wrong. Slavery was wrong, women being 2nd class citizens was wrong. but they were both time honored tradtions.

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dyslexia wrote:

MA, because it's wrong. Slavery was wrong, women being 2nd class citizens was wrong. but they were both time honored tradtions.

dys,

I understand that. But, we no longer have slavery. Discrimination is against the law, as well it should be.

Why do you focus on what was and not what is? Those changes were good changes. Dys, check out this link. I don't expect you to agree with this, but it is a possibility.

http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

When I was in school we could pray. We said the Pledge of Allegiance everyday. In science class we talked about creationism and evolution. If we take God out then only one side is satisfied. How do you propose to make it equal for everyone? It's equal now. You don't have to practice Christianity. If you don't want to pray, don't. If you don't want to even utter God's name, don't. I have no problem with that. It's just like with anything else, dys, if you don't agree with it then don't do it.

Again, this seems to me to be wanting freedom FROM religion rather than freedom OF religion.

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dyslexia wrote:

Yeah Intrepid, I usually try to relate to what I know and what I know is about where I live. Perhaps you would prefer that our discourse focus on Mozambique?

Then it is obvious that I should not partake in this discussion because I am not a citizen of the U.S. of A. You go ahead and have your discussion in your own little world.

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That's exactly right, Momma. We want freedom FROM your religion and any other religion. You keep it to yourself and friends and we will will get along splendidly.

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dyslexia wrote:

MA, because it's wrong. Slavery was wrong, women being 2nd class citizens was wrong. but they were both time honored tradtions.

You may want to read a newspaper. They have both been abolished. Shocked

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Well MA, we could go round and round with this to no avail but seriously I would like you to think about this question, very seriously "Does a citizen of the US of A have the right to be free from religion?"

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You both missed Dys's meaning, which I am quite certain he will explain to you shortly.

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edgarblythe wrote:

You see, snood, you take the last part of a lifelong statement, ignoring the rest.

I don't think Snood ignored the rest. Your bottom line summed it up and he answered that.

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You are mistaken, intrepid.

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Intrepid wrote:

dyslexia wrote:
MA, because it's wrong. Slavery was wrong, women being 2nd class citizens was wrong. but they were both time honored tradtions.

You may want to read a newspaper. They have both been abolished.

Nice try Intrepid but my response was to MA and her stating that it's ok because that's the way we have always done it. Things change because the people (some people) want everyone to be equal, equality is a work in progress so to speak.

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dyslexia wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
MA, because it's wrong. Slavery was wrong, women being 2nd class citizens was wrong. but they were both time honored tradtions.

You may want to read a newspaper. They have both been abolished.

Nice try Intrepid but my response was to MA and her stating that it's ok because that's the way we have always done it. Things change because the people (some people) want everyone to be equal, equality is a work in progress so to speak.

Actually dys, I did not say that it was okay because that is the way it has always been done. What I said was can't you understand how I would not want something taken away from me that I have always had?

Now, you said nothing about that link. It's funny, but I have posted that link a few times and asked if it was a possibility or not? I have gotten no response. I find that quite curious. Is it because it may be what our founding fathers meant? I feel it is just as possible that is what they DID mean as it is that is what they DIDN'T mean.

dys, there will always be some form of religion in the world. I don't believe in Islam, Buddhism, Moonies, etc.; therefore, I don't practice them, I don't speak the names of who they call god, I don't engage in it in any way. They have their right to their religion just as I have my right to mine and yours to not have one. As long as there are Christians in politics, Christian values will be there. As long as there are Buddhists in politics, Buddhist values will be there. The only way to be completely free from religion in the public sector is to ban religion and make sure that whatever politicians are voted in, have no religious beliefs whatsoever. I don't think this is possible. So, what's the answer? Make religion illegal? I am not trying to be a smart-butt here, dys. I am honestly wondering these things.

I would like to ask a question of you, if I may. Was there a specific thing that made you want to take religion out of the public sector altogether? Is this something you have always felt? That's more than one question. Sorry.

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MA I spent my childhood growing up in a muslim nation, I have seen first hand how "religion" not separated from civil society restricts the rights of everyone be they religious or not. I do not advoated making religion illegal, I ask that religion always be kept away from restricting the rights of the people. Noone but christians and some jews respect the 10 commandments above the constitution and the body of laws it represents. This (the US of A) is a consitutional democracy (republic) ergo the 10 commandments should NOT be in a public courthouse, keep them in your home as you like and live by them if you chose but do not force them on me. Yes, you can say that the majority of americans are christians but the very idea of a majority imposing its will on the minority is a basic ingredient in the founding of our nation hence the Supreme Court, we are a natrion of civil law not relgious law.

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dys,

I understand. But, did you read that link? You still have not addressed that.

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Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

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