Talk about your various addictions here

Oh please!

Could you possibly get any more condecending?

"hoping the best"
"looking for answers"
"finding a way"

This is as bad as the Heavy Duty Christians on the relegion thread you always feel the need "to pray for you", as if you're in constant peril.

Unbelieveable as it must be for you, there actually comes a time when your brains sharpens up enough that platitudes like yours are nothing but annoying.

Did it ever occur to you people actually end up getting the best, finding the answers, and finding a way? I'm living proof.

Of course now your thoughts are just screaming "She's got anger issues, she's in denial" Does it ever end?

Jeez, this is the first time probably in 5 or 7 years I've had a conversation on this subject.....and it's exactly the same as back then.

Well, I certanly won't comment on the anger issues then.

I wish there was a way to express tones of voice in some posts.

If there was, no would not hear anger, but bemusemnt.

It's quite amusing when after someone who clearly has a rewarding life is addressed as if he/she were some poor sould who certainly cannot be expected to understand.

I'm thinking if the situation was reversed, you might show a little annoyance yourself.

My words about the composition of a typical meeting? If you look closely, I do not even mention the group you're addressing.

New comers, yes they have their head up their butt......or else they wouldn't be there. That's no insult, that's just the way it is.



Shirt and tie alchoholic?
Well then, you'll want to be talking to me.

Sorry to take this thread off-topic for a moment.

I had cancer treatment back in 1995. I completed about a month of radiation therapy treatments. I seemed to have come out okay from this experience. Time will tell.

I never attended any "support groups". Didn't feel the need and I don't think it would have changed things anyway. If I would have died, then so be it.

Some people say that having cancer changes your outlook on life completely. With me, nothing changed. Perhaps it's because I have a fairly fatalistic outlook on life anyways, but that's me, and I don't apologize for it.

I think having cancer affected more the people around me, than myself. So, nearly 10 years later, I'm still here. At least for now.

I'm glad you brought that up, Reyn. I, too, am a cancer survivor. I had surgery for colon cancer back in 1993. Spent the entire month of December that year in the hospital. Three separate surgical procedures. I declined chemotherapy because I believe it's more of an investigative tool rather than a therapeutic tool. Since then, I've had three colonoscopies and have come up clean as a whistle each time.

My point: it never even occurred to me to join some sort of cancer survivor support group. Like you, Reyn, cancer hasn't changed anything whatever in my outlook on life. I mean, I've always known that we are all susceptible to sudden death at any time and accepted that as a fact of life long, long ago. I don't need a support group to keep me away from a future cancer. That's where the disease of alcoholism is different from most other ailments. It's not really meaningful to compare AA meetings with other types of support groups. About the only support group I can think of that resebles AA is Weight Watchers.

I'm not an alcoholic and I don't drink alcohol, so I don't speak from experience, but what you say here makes good sense. I think the comparison is a reasonably fair one.

Why don't you think it's meaningful?

Why do you think alcoholism is different from any other ailment that exisists in the world?

Physically, it's no different from other addictions.

Just like the smoker or herion addict, if you start doing it again, you'll get physically addicted again.

If a non alcoholic person were forced to drink copious amounts of alcohol for a long period, say 2 or 3 years, and then you abruptly discontinued it, they would go through the same physical discomfort an alcoholic would.

Mentally, if you're depressed, anxious, etc. and you go for therapy, hopefully you become better/well after a period of time. Under most circumstances you would not continue therapy for the rest of your life.

Spiritually? I think that is something to aid you, but that is extremely personal, so no sense going there.

I have nothing against AA, really.

But get over it, being an alcoholic does not make you unique.

Like any problem, if you want to get better, have a better life, there are many ways to the top of the mountain. Support groups, individual help, self help, God, talking to you cat, whatever does the trick.

I was thinking about this thread last night as I was making dinner last night, preparing for a quiet evening of reading a good book, being in the same room with the man I love, scratching the cat under the chin and taking a nice hot shower, before getting between crisp clean sheets and dozing off.

It really made me smile and shake my head to myself.
I mean, doesn't the above sound like the most wonderful thing in the world? I have that or similar every day of my life.

When someone recovers from cancer - everyone says - Wow, that's so wonderful.

When someone loses weight and keeps it off - everyone says - Great, you look so good and healthy.

Similar for getting a great job, a promotion, new home, baby, etc. etc.

You spend 12 years of your life drinking like a fish, being a butthole, then spend the bulk of the next 18 years having that beautiful making dinner, enjoying your spouse, having a rewarding career, in total, what I would call a happy life, and what do you hear?......

Well if you look for the answers....
well if you find your way.....
well I just hope for the best.......

drug counselors and so forth see so many hard cases every day....they sometimes don't realize that everyone isn't standing on the edge of the abyss every moment.

they see so many sick people, they can't see the well ones.

When I mentioned cult like behavior at one point, that is just one of the things that come to mind.....

this mentality of - you know, you won't be able to go out there into the real world and function....you need to stay with us......If you think you're happy with your life, you must be in denial, you need to come back to the fold........

Of course, since I'm going on about this, I too must be in denial.

Oh sorry - PS

For I guess about the last 12 - 15 years or so, I don't think I have ever told anyone at a job, or social function, or probably anywhere, that I'm an alcoholic. Exept for doctors, in case they have to perscribe me something, or in areas like this where it is the topic.

And you know what? People have NEVER asked me. No one has ever forced a drink on me, or wondered why I never had a hangover.

I have disagreements from time to time like anyone else, but no one has ever said, - you're just being that way because you're an Alcoholic.

So - I don't use alcoholism as an excuse for things that don't go perfectly.

I have a refridgerator magnet that says....

"Stop using Jesus as an excuse for being a bigoted, narrow minded as*hole"

Same idea.

I don't understand your 'PS', Chai Tea.

Are you saying that some, many or just a few use their alcoholism as an excuse for things that don't go perfectly?

Well, those who do so, aren't still really sober.


No-one ever forced me to drink either, I've been been in such a society, even when drinking.
If I get offered a drink, I just say 'no'.

I think as well that more people wonder about a person with a hangover than about those who don't have one - at least here in Germany.

Again, I've never heard that faults/diagreements with a sober alcoholic led to such remarks like you said ... that this was reasoned by the alcoholism.

Again, I don't speak as an "experienced" person on this topic, so excuse me if what I say seems out of place.

Does it automatically mean that if a person drinks too much, that they will become an alcoholic? Does not mindset, or genetics play somewhat of a role in this?

The same with gambling? I know someone close to the family who has this problem and he has what I call "classic symptoms."

Generally (= according to the ICD worldwide) such what Chai Tea discribed there above is considered to be one of the main symptoms of alcoholism.

Your remarks about what plays a role, aren't that incorrect at all: some can drink liters of alcoholic drinks without being or becaming an alcholic - others just have a class per day and show heavy symptoms.

Ahhh Walter dear, you and I have communication problems.

Honestly, when I read your posts in other threads, I seldom really understand what you are trying to say.

There's no prob with that, others understand you, so I just chalk it up to one of those things.

We all know people we just don't 'get'

I point I was making in my PS was that, in my experience, many people who get sober through AA find it necessary somehow to work the fact into the conversation, even if it has no place in that particular conversation.

There's been quite of number of people I've met out in the general public who at some point within the first half hour of talking to them need to tell you they're an alcoholic and how long they haven't had a drink.
I'm thinking - who cares? what does this have to do with the subject at hand?

The disagreement part, someone saying 'you're being that way because.....'?
Well, I have sat in meetings, where I've heard people say to others something to the effect that 'that's your alcoholism talking' or 'well, you lost your temper, whatever, because of your alcoholic thinking.

As a matter of fact, even in this thread, look at the things I've addressed.

I mention that newcomers generally have their heads up their butt - instead of I suppose saying in more sophisticated terms, 'they have so many issues right now, their life is out of control, they've made poor decesions because of their drinking......In other words, their heads are up their butt........

when I said that, the reaction was one of, well, you're having issues with another alcoholic, if you feel others a dumb or jerks, that probably where you need to be, just keep seeking answers.

You know, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

the statement about a hangover? I've been in multiple situations where, for instance, I'm on a business trip and those I work with stay up having a few drinks, while I go to my room (I always go to bed early)
the next morning, when I'm one of the few bright and chipper people in the room, yes actually the subject of being one of the few without a hangover has come up.

In truth, I am not trying to start or engage in any kind of argument with anyone on this forum.
At this point, I feel as though I'm repeating myself, only to now come across as 'me thinks thou does't protest too much'

ya can't win for losing.

and yes, I've encountered many people who use all sorts of excuses for their behavior, alcohol, family, being born under the wrong star, whatever takes accountablility away from them......

If anything, it's just frustrating to stand up and say, "I'm happy" and have those 2 words analyzed to death.......

Reyn, I didn't mean to imply that alcoholics can be made just by their drinking a lot, every day......if you're not prone to it......you're not,
but if you were given any drug in large quantities over a period of time, you would still have physical discomfort or even withdrawl. I suppose the difference is you would say, God, I don't want to go through THAT again, and won't. The alcoholic will.

I myself drank every day, but surprisingly not in quantities that one would suspect........my metabolism is very sensitive, any medication given to me effects me faster, and stronger than most people.


So, in closing - I'm not trying to argue with anyone, or debate, or whatever you call it here.

It's not any fun, and I prefer fun.

Just needed to hock up some things stuck in my craw I suppose.

Now, I, in complete denial, will go about my day, oblivious to the eminent danger I am putting myself in.

later, gators

Reyn writes


If I could field this one, as I said in a previous post, studies show that about 90% of the people who drink will not develop alcoholism no matter how much they drink. I have interviewed people who drank far more tnan most alcoholics and when they decided to stop, they just stopped without experiencing significant withdrawal discomfort. The studies also show that many who do develop alcoholism were social drinkers who did not drink excessively until they crossed that invisible line and alcoholism began to manifest itself. If no alcohol is consumed, no alcoholism develops; however, the 10% at risk will almost certainly develop alcoholism sooner or later if they drink regularly. Where genetics seem to come in is that if you have alcoholism in your family, your chances of being among that 10% at risk are much higher.

I haven't recommended anybody try it, but we were taught that a very good test for alcoholism is for the person to drink two drinks containing 1 or 2 ounce 80 or 100 proof alcohol each day for 30 days. The 2 drinks is both a maximum and a minimum and must not be varied. Those who can maintain the schedule without any difficulty or discomfort are certainly not alcoholics. The alcoholics will be uncomfortable stopping at two and will want to increase the allotment for the day and/or may want to skip days just to avoid the discomfort at stopping at two.

Chai Tea is correct that all addictions share some similarities; however, alcoholism is an addiction unto itself being caused by something akin to an allergic reaction coupled with a clinically significant physical dependency plus a psycholsis that you do not see in most other addictions. Gambling for instance shares many of the addictive characteristics, but there is no clinically significal physical change when one stops gambling. (Yes we have a couple of addicted gamblers in our family too.) There are some recovering alcoholics who never quite get off the pity pot but fortunately they are fairly rare. Most are able to put their lives back on track and achieve true serenity with their sobriety. Some keep going to meetings because they find them helpful; some go to help others and give something back; some go just because they like being with the people there; some stop going after awhile. There are no rules.

Sometimes the problem comes with the codependent who tried for years to get the alcoholic to cut down, stop drinking, etc. and then when he finally did, she is bitterly resentful that he would do it for his sponsor or AA or whatever when he wouldn't do it for her. (Pronouns are gender arbitrary here.)

My point here is that there are few absolutes other than alcoholism cannot be treated by any other means than removing all alcohol from the equation. There is no such thing as being a 'little bit alcoholic' any more than you can be a 'little bit pregnant'. Both are progressive conditions except alcoholism doesn't end at nine months. But it is important that the disease does not manifest itself identically in any two people--each will have some similar experiences and some quite different experiences.

P.S. That alcoholic closest to me recently had surgery to remove prostate cancer. He spent years in AA but hasn't been in years except very intermittently to support a friend; has had a successful and productive life. He is serene in his sobriety. And he won't be going to any cancer support groups.

Oh, no problem. Fair enough. My comment was more in the form of a question, so I can learn from others who have been involved with alcohol.

My entire experience with it is about a half a dozen beer, which I drank in my "reckless youth".....about a million years ago.

Thank you for your explanation. It was very helpful.

You're very welcome. While there are differences in experience and how the disease manifests itself among individual addicts, there are some things that are sufficiently universal to use in making a diagnosis.

'It is definitely a strange "disease"' "how the disease manifests itself"

I take issue with the term "disease" when addressing alcoholism and drug addition. These are NOT diseases (cancer,diabetes, AIDS are diseases); they are simply habits that are out of control and a pure manifestation of deeper issues (i.e. anxiety, depression, etc). Which I believe we all agree upon.

I am just so tired of people copping out and hiding out behind a weakness and inability to control themselves and their behavior. Dr. Ameisen and the people that claim they cannot stop this "Disease" without becoming addicted to other drugs are ridiculous and in self-denial. I just pray this guy isn't practicing. Fortunately, by his admission, hopefully, he will never be allowed to practice medicine again.

God knows what he's done to his patients while under the influence.

Dr. Ameisen's report of something worth reporting is just a pitiful attempt at self-congratulation, conceit, self absorption and patting oneself on the back disguised with a professional title. After causing utter devastation around him to both his friends, family and loved ones, his report is absurd.

I don't see any incredible feat by creating ones own bad behavior, hurting and most likely devastating all those around them, and then stopping the habit, and claiming it's some sort of major miracle, as anything particulary special.

I think alcoholism is pure laziness and an excuse to not face reality. Get a grip and stop feeling so sorry for yourselves by claims of being afflicted by a "disease". Get through cancer, clean, and then post something worthwhile.

Jovana, the fact is that if no refined sugar is consumed, no diabetes develops. Do you consider diabetics weak or morally deficit if they consume sugar and it makes them sick? Sick with a sickness that means sugar will forever be a problem for them? A sickness that the vast majority of people will never get? They once enjoyed sugary things as other people enjoy them with no problem. But one day they crossed an invisible line and consumption of sugar began making them sick.

How is alcoholism different? If no alcohol is consumed, no alcoholism develops. Most of 90% of people who drink, do so socially with no apparent ill effects or problem. But there is that minority of people who unintentionally and unexpectedly crossed an invisible line and alcohol began making them sick. The sickness has no cure but is treated by total abstinance from alcohol. The treatment further includes instruction on how to live happily and comfortably without alcohol, something an alcoholic who is still drinking cannot imagine.

The two sicknesses (diseases) do not manifest themselves in the same way, but they are both diseases just the same.

I find your reply incredibly insulting and ridiculous. But go ahead and continue justifying your disease with stupid comments. It just makes you look all that much more of a pitiful soul and unworthy of sympathy or understanding.

Jovana, I have gotten through cancer, clean. I have also overcome my alcoholism. What is your point? Simply labeling an alcoholic as 'morally weak' or 'lacking will-power' in no way helps that person. In fact, the trick is to convince the drunk or drug addict that he/she is not a bad person who wants to be good, but, rather, a sick person who should strive to get well.

And, btw, is there some reason why you wish to be insulting to foxfyre?