Talk about your various addictions here

It is defnitely a strange disease, Andrew, and there are obviously no set rules that an alcoholic is THIS and not THAT, etc. My closest alcoholic relative was mostly a closet drinker who did his heaviest drinking alone. He never lost a job or promotion and never got a DWI, was a Scout leader, and pillar of the Church. He was the typical respectable alcholic but nevertheless alcohol was taking its toll. Now with more than 24 years of sobriety he can enjoy an O'Douls or be in a restaurant that serves liquor with no problems. The first year or so he didn't risk that.

And Jack Webb, I don't know whether you were a bonafide alcoholic or not. Many drink heavily enough long enough to damage their health, but for whatever reason, you might not have had the propensity for alcoholism. I am convinced that not everybody does. I have never known an alcoholic who stopped, however, who did not have at least some cravings and other physical symptoms of withdrawal. And there are precious few who can stop on will power alone.

The reason an alcoholic is considered to always be recovering is that breaking sobriety quickly brings back all the old destructive thinking and behavior. It is further believed by at least some that the disease progresses even when the alcoholic is not drinking though such progression is harmless to the person so long as s/he maintains sobriety. Start drinking after five or ten years of sobriety, however, and the addiction manifests itself at a level that would have occurred had the person been drinking all those years.

Some old timers in AA have told me they keep going long after they lose their desire to drink. They find it useful to learn how to live happily, successfully, and in peace with sobriety. I believe them.

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Footnote: that alcoholic relative who drank alone? He would get out on remote country section roads and down most of a fifth of Vodka and told himself he wasn't hurting anybody. Once he got into AA and started talking to other recovering alcoholics, many of them also were out on those country roads downing a sixpack or two or a fifth of something. They laughed wondering how long it would have been before there was a huge mass collision out there in the middle of nowhere somewhere.

For those who didn't grow up in middle America farm country: farms are measured by sections (one square mile) and most sections have a dirt or gravel road around around them so you have this vast network of roads crisscrossing a pretty good chunk of real estate. You can get out and drive those roads for hours without crossing a highway or other high traffic area.

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Foxfyre wrote:

there are obviously no set rules that an alcoholic is THIS and not THAT, etc.

Well, there are e.g. here in Germany 'rules' - otherwise doctors couldn't send you to hospital and therapy and the health security wouldn't pay it :wink:

Besides, of course the International Classification of Diseases defines alcoholism clearly (actually now ICD-10). (Corresponding categories in the DSM-III-R and DSM-IV are alcohol dependence and alcohol abuse.)

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Foxfyre & Walter

I'd like your opinion on something re: AA

Talking from my own experience......This might be a bit long, but it is important.

I quit drinking and went to AA in July of 1987.

Without the whole long history, I knew I needed to be there.

The first year I made more postive changes in my life than the 29ish years I had lived thus far.

In that first year I obeyed all the "rules" willingly. BTW, one of the best things I ever heard someone say when chairing a meeting was "there are no rules in AA, but there's a lot of - you damn better(s)"
The whole 9 yards....
meetings dailly, didn't get involved in a relationship, got a sponsor, etc.

After a year or so, a person actually DOES get better, if they've been paying attention.

I also started paying attention to what was going on around me.

At almost 2 years, I married someone who had 15 years. He was one of those guys that everyone wanted him to be their sponsor, he was asked to speak all over town, all the time. He started jail meetings, went on 12 step calls, always reading the big book, and so forth.

When we were courting, we went to many meetings together, and I knew how he stood on his sobriety and life in general....a wonderful match, he made a very good living, and congratulations were overwhelming in letting me know I had found such a good man.

Shortly (a couple of months) after the wedding, he let his facade drop, but only to me....

The instant he walked away from someone who had been asking his advice, the minute he walked away from a meeting, I listened to him tell me how stupid they all were, what idiots they were, how they should all go back out and live in the gutter.
I started to not want to go to meetings, but would be harrassed until I did go with him.
I started wanting not to share, as I was afraid he would critique me the same way. Funny thing was, one night when I had shared, later in the car I brought up what I had said, and he snapped at me, "What are you talking about", I told him I was talking about what I had said at the meeting, and his response was "Oh, I never listen to anything you say in there" - he had been sitting right next to me.

Once when I became very ill with the flu, he did not have time to bring me a cup of tea, because he had to go to one of his jail meetings, and told me he didn't have time to wait for water to boil, he had to go help another alcoholic.

Enough of him, the marriage ended in less than two years, case closed.

My marriage to him was harder to get over than drinking, by far.

My point is......There are Many people like that in AA.
Not only the ones who were and still are con men, cheats, etc. but also people who have no other existence beyond those meetings, talking about meetings, waiting for the next meeting, calling people about the meetings, doing things only with people you meet from meetings, etc., while the rest of their life, including wives, children, go into limbo.

I thought this was really sad....one day, while living with but not yet married to my now and forever husband, we stopped by a grocery store. He was paying while I went and sat on a bench near the door.
A guy from AA who I had not seen in at least 3 or 4 years (I'd been living in another state) came up to me. I was getting ready to say hi, when he blurted....."I haven't seen you at any meetings lately" in that vaguely accusing way people from AA sometimes aquire.

My response, without thinking was "Robin, I haven't seen you in at least 3 years, and that's the only thing you can think to say to me? How about - how are you?"

I have such a clear memory of this...."he mumbled, "well, how are you?" and I answered "great! I'm getting married, just got a new job, we're buying new furniture, etc."
Uh, well, great, guess I'll see you at a meeting, you still go to xyz group?

Oy Vey.

Both my husband and I have made this observation, when we were first married and maybe went together once a month.....

Looking at a typical room......50% are new people who still have their heads up their butts (no offense, where else would their heads be at that time) or newer people with less than 3 years, 40% people who have 15 to 20 years plus, and 10% miscellaneous in between.

So....What are all these people doing between 3 and 14 years? I'll tell you:
The one with < 3 years have nothing else, or a using AA for social purposes (but we all know the correct things to say.
The people with 15 plus are ususally men, either divorced or with a wife that wishes they'd get out from underfoot....they go to meetings and get to be guru's like my first husband.

the sober people from 3 to 15......are home making love to their husbands and wives, playing with their kids, doing creative things. In other words, having a life.

It's great putting the word out there that this is one method people use to stop drinking, but from the prespective of someone who's been there, it sounds a lot like christian fundamentalism.

Actually, AA does have quite a few cult like qualities.

Please don't insult my intelligence by replying that I just had a bad experience with one person.
People are people, the cons, perverts, fanatics are all there, as well as the politics, dealings and underhanded actions.

I'm not asking if you have found any of this to be true or untrue. I've been there, I know it's true.

Do you feel it's right or fair to people, after they have found their life, to imply, as AA does, that if they don't keep going, they WILL drink?

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Part of my therapy was that we had to (sic!) join different (typs of) help groups during the time we were in hospital.

I really knew nothing about such before (how could I Laughing

- but I wrote a MA thesis about helpgroups later :wink: ), but realised that ANONYMOUS wasn't helpful for me > to say it simply: I'd drunk openly and thought (and think) that I say this (and more) openly as well.

(That's just my very personal idea! I'm totally aware of the fact that this doesn't - and can't - work for the most.)

I founded with the help of my social worker a 'free' helpgroup, which later joined a ('catholic') helpgroup organisation with a more than 100 year tradition.
Helped founding some more groups, lectured at that organisation (= qualified group leaders) ... and left it, because in my eyes professional ideas can't really do much good in a volunteer self help group/organisation.

Altogether, I went regularily to the groupps from 1983 until .... late 80's, I think.

I don't think at all that you start drinking when not going to a slefhelp group.

But I do think, going there gives you a lot of help not to start again.

It's everyone's own choice.

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First of all, anyone that claims that a self-inflicted habit such as drinking alcohol is in the same category as a horrible sickness like cancer is just selfish, weak, completely lazy or out of control.

Obviously, the drinker finds more emotional reward being intoxicated than being sober. That's a sad truth.

And we all know that alcoholism is purely a symptom of a much larger problem. In this case, Olivier Ameisen openly admits to suffering from severe anxiety.

So can someone tell me what the miracle is of self-prescribing high doses of a different drug (in his case Baclofen) to treat the emotional disorder/imbalance? It's just a simple case of replacing one drug with another.

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Actually, Jovana, I'm not - and I'm sure most here on this thread aren't as well - talking about people with a self-inflicted habit.

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Two things.

First, Chai, when I was brand new to AA and to sobriety. I thought that all those people with years and years of sobriety probably could walk on water if they so chose. My sponsor at the time quickly deflated this illusion. He told me, :If you've never met anybody in AA that you don't like, if you think they're all really great people, Andy, you're not going to enough meetings!"

Secondly, Jovana, you're absolutely right in saying that alcoholism is frequently just one symptom of a much larger problem. The problem is that the drunks will use this fact to say, "I'll stop drinking once I've figured out what the deeper problem is." I know that I did just that. It wasn't until I'd been sober for a while that I realized that fighting that one symptom is the first step in fighting the deeper problem. No rational insights can be gained by a person who's looped. It doesn't matter what the deeper problem is: it won't get solved until the sufferer puts down the booze.

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To Walter: I think the anonymity doesn't mean you don't blow your own cover. Most sponsors and counselors, at least the good ones, say not to make a big deal out of it, but if the subject comes up or you're asked, you don't lie about it. (That doesn't mean it has to be discussed with any busybody whose business it isn't.) The anonymity means you assure those who confide in you that you aren't going to go out and out them or spread around all the yucky things they've done. (According to every alcoholic and codependent I've ever know, including myself, everybody does yucky things.)

The 'rules' I talked about consist of the specific behavior of the alcoholic. One drinks only beer; another Jack Daniels; another Ripple wine. Some drink alone; some like to get drunk with their buddies. Some cannot function normally at all when drinking and some hide it pretty darn well. Some drink all the time, some at certain times of the day, and some binge drink at intervals. That's what I mean when I say there are no rules.

I've been doing this kind of work long enough for me to believe with no reservations that alcoholism produces physical, mental, and emotional deterioration that very definitely fits the clinical definition of 'disease'. Of course there are weak and immoral alcoholics, but the alcoholic doesn't drink because he is weak or immoral. He drinks to feel normal.

Chai Tea, I am sorry you had such a terrible experience. There is one thing that is certain: If a guy is already an a-hole, he doesn't stop being one just because he gets sober. And of course there are those who use AA as their social life because they have no other. And there are good groups and not so good groups out there both in AA and al-Anon. I encourage people who are having a bad experience to shop around until they find a group that clicks. They won't be sorry.

Do alcoholics have to keep going to group meetings to stay sober? Of course not. Those who have healthy family and friends support, who have social outlets that don't involve drinking, and who 'get the program' and understand how it works, can do quite nicely without the meetings after awhile. Those meetings are invaluable to the 99% who are in the process of getting sober and getting well though. That relative I mentioned hasn't gone to meetings in years except when he is helping a friend get off the sauce--then he goes to a few meetings for backup support.

It has always been my observation that many who find the meeting dumb and full of a lot of stupid losers are those who most need to be there. Especially if it is a good group. Smile

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Foxfyre wrote:

It has always been my observation that many who find the meeting dumb and full of a lot of stupid losers are those who most need to be there. Especially if it is a good group.

I only can underline and highlight that.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

It has always been my observation that many who find the meeting dumb and full of a lot of stupid losers are those who most need to be there. Especially if it is a good group.

I only can underline and highlight that.

Absolutely. This early rejection of the meeting format is also a form of denial. The alcoholic will look around at the others in the room, listen to speakers, and say, "I'm not anything like these nutcases. Theymay need this stupid meeting; I sure don't." And they will believe this to be true when, in fact, their own drinking is just as out of control as that down-and-out bum's is. They compare instead of identifying. They will say, "I'm wearing a suit and tie and can hold a job. Therefore I'm obviously not an alcoholic." Nonsense. Alcoholics can come out of Park Avenue as well as off a park bench.

There's an old saying in AA: "When you really don't feel like going to a meeting, that's when you probably need a meeting the most." And the advice given to all new-comers is, always try to identify with the speaker, don't compare your ecperience to his/hers.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I think the anonymity doesn't mean you don't blow your own cover. Most sponsors and counselors, at least the good ones, say not to make a big deal out of it, but if the subject comes up or you're asked, you don't lie about it. (That doesn't mean it has to be discussed with any busybody whose business it isn't.)

Honestly? I have never had the subject come up. Alchey's tend to think everyone is facinated with the fact they ordered an ice team instead of a beer. If the subject "comes up" The alchoholic is overwhelming the one who brought it up

The 'rules' I talked about consist of the specific behavior of the alcoholic. One drinks only beer; another Jack Daniels; another Ripple wine. Some drink alone; some like to get drunk with their buddies. Some cannot function normally at all when drinking and some hide it pretty darn well. Some drink all the time, some at certain times of the day, and some binge drink at intervals. That's what I mean when I say there are no rules.

I wasn't refering to anything you said, I must have missed that one.

Chai Tea, I am sorry you had such a terrible experience. There is one thing that is certain: If a guy is already an a-hole, he doesn't stop being one just because he gets sober. And of course there are those who use AA as their social life because they have no other. And there are good groups and not so good groups out there both in AA and al-Anon. I encourage people who are having a bad experience to shop around until they find a group that clicks. They won't be sorry.

Don't feel sorry for me. There's nothing to be sorry for. That's life. It wasn't a bad experience, it wasn't a good experience, it was an experience.
I wasn't trying to convince anyone of the fact there are good people and bad people in the world. You're not telling anyone anything they didn't already know.
I've been to meetings all across the US.....Florida, NJ, Calif, Oregon, Wisconsin, NJ, Texas, Washington, Nevada, New Mexico, Iowa, Idaho, Oklahoma......and I know I'm missing some.
There's not a nickles difference between a meeting one place and a meeting in another if you get down to it.
If you stay long enough at one place, and keep your eyes open, you will soon figure out who the gurus, followers, flirters, cons and oh "please feel sorry" for me are.
This has nothing to do with a group, this is human nature, every group, no matter what the purpose in the world, forms its own micro-society.

It has always been my observation that many who find the meeting dumb and full of a lot of stupid losers are those who most need to be there. Especially if it is a good group.

You're a social worker, aren't you?

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Chai Tea, I hope you don't think all my comments were directed at you personally, because I was addressing different issues raised by others on the thread as well. I am not a social worker. I took the training for certification as a substance abuse counselor specializing in alcoholism, and have done that for a long time as an avocation, not my vocation.

If I could emote for just a minute....I also have a nibble from a publisher and am so excited that I might get a book deal on the subject. It would be a dream come true. Oherwise I write on religion and JudeoChristian history - also an avocation, not a vocation.

If you have attended all those meetings in all those places, and didn't feel a connection with any of them, I think you indeed are missing something. Since your primary conflict seems to be with the alcoholic in your life more than your own addiction, you might benefit from sitting in al-Anon meetings for awhile. It usually takes six months or so of dedicated attendance at meetings to get that program too.

Walter and Andrew, I think you two really did get the program. I hope you are rewarding yourselves with every birthday.

Andrew, you nailed it that you identify with the speaker, not compare his experiences with yours. Some will have had similar experiences to your own; most will be somewhat different. But there is no experience out there that somebody hasn't had. My favorite alcoholic tells those he sponsors: "You and I have never done anything that somebody else hasn't already done. We aren't unique and we aren't special. We're just another drunk getting sober and learning how to be happy with sobriety."

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Foxfyre wrote:

Chai Tea, I hope you don't think all my comments were directed at you personally, because I was addressing different issues raised by others on the thread as well. I am not a social worker. I took the training for certification as a substance abuse counselor specializing in alcoholism, and have done that for a long time as an avocation, not my vocation.

If I could emote for just a minute....I also have a nibble from a publisher and am so excited that I might get a book deal on the subject. It would be a dream come true. Oherwise I write on religion and JudeoChristian history - also an avocation, not a vocation.

If you have attended all those meetings in all those places, and didn't feel a connection with any of them, I think you indeed are missing something. Since your primary conflict seems to be with the alcoholic in your life more than your own addiction, you might benefit from sitting in al-Anon meetings for awhile. It usually takes six months or so of dedicated attendance at meetings to get that program too.

Walter and Andrew, I think you two really did get the program. I hope you are rewarding yourselves with every birthday.

Andrew, you nailed it that you identify with the speaker, not compare his experiences with yours. Some will have had similar experiences to your own; most will be somewhat different. But there is no experience out there that somebody hasn't had. My favorite alcoholic tells those he sponsors: "You and I have never done anything that somebody else hasn't already done. We aren't unique and we aren't special. We're just another drunk getting sober and learning how to be happy with sobriety."

Well, no, I didn't think you were aiming anything at me.

I was taking statements of yours, and commenting on them. Except of course the one you address directly to me.

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Well anyway I hope only the best for you Chai Tea. I think those of us who are looking for answers and don't give up will usually find them.

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Well, I'm a social worker, taught even 'Methods of Social Work' at university :wink:

Actually, I studied soical work, after I went to therapy: I wanted to get to know, what exactly made me sober.

However, as others said already above, my ecperience about alcoholism is just and only my own experience - and I feel quite happy that academics don't differ on this opinion. :wink:

I mean, you really should look to find your way, with or without group.
It doesn't matter, if it helps and you feel better afterwards.

But be assured that the help of others, who have lived or still live in similar situations, even a couple of persons who just listen to you, makes your own life much easier.

But as a German sayin says: everyone is his/her own fortune's smith (is 'the architect of his own fortune' would be the English equivalent, but I like the German expression better: more craftsmanship in it :wink: ).

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Foxfyre wrote:

I think those of us who are looking for answers and don't give up will usually find them.

Well, that's better than my long response - didn't see it before I posted.

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I thought your response was great, Walter.

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Foxfyre wrote:

If you have attended all those meetings in all those places, and didn't feel a connection with any of them, I think you indeed are missing something. Since your primary conflict seems to be with the alcoholic in your life more than your own addiction, you might benefit from sitting in al-Anon meetings for awhile. It usually takes six months or so of dedicated attendance at meetings to get that program too.

"

Foxfyre - I believe you are the one missing something.
It's interesting the way you both (a)missed actual statements made and (b) misinterpret what you did read.

I checked back over what I wrote and did not state anywhere I did not connect with any meetings. I'm not sure where you got that from.

I don't have a conflict with an alchoholic in my life, I divorced my ex-husband more than 11 years ago, and have not seen him since.
I have since remarried, and have an all around normal, happy life. There wouldn't be any reason for me to go to an al-anon meeting.

As I indicated, these where events that happened in the late 1980's, and a bit of 1990, if you had been reading, you would have noticed that.

I was using a small part of my experience with AA to express my sentiment that I feel too much has been made in the past and in the present about the need for this constant "working on" your alchoholism.

There is this aura that if you aren't in some way connected to something or someone to discuss your drinking or non-drinking, something will fail miserably in your life.

In truth, I feel like a shining beacon, a goal that most alcholics are trying to obtain. I have what people in general seek in life; happiness, health, peace of mind, and knowledge I'm contributing positively to society.

So, honestly, I do find it a little insulting to have my statement misread, having a curve ball thrown, so to speak.

In fact, it relates to one of the points I was trying, but failed, to express, i.e. that if there is something you agree with, or require, or outgrown since you've "gotten a life", it must be that you are either "in denial" or "need to keep looking for the right group"
In fact, I did say that groups like AA are very useful for people who are new, and for various reasons attractive to people who have had long term sobriety and wish to perhaps fill some void in there life.

If someone has cancer, and goes through the mill to get rid of it, you don't expect them to attend support groups forever, only until they are ready to get back into life.

Perhaps one day I'll develop this void, and feel like I need to hang around one of the meeting halls, although, truthfully, knowing what I know, I can't imagine it.

In the meantime, as I also said, I'm in that group that has more than 3 years, less than 25, who really don't have much use for it at the moment, since I acheived the life that those newcomers were looking for.

PS - if even the passing thought of drinking has not gone through my mind with the difficult situations I and my family have gone thru in the pass decade and a half, I'm not too worried. And that is not "denial", that having a life.

I would be interested in hearing more about the book you have in the works.

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Chai Tea, in your post you wrote

Quote:

Looking at a typical room......50% are new people who still have their heads up their butts (no offense, where else would their heads be at that time) or newer people with less than 3 years, 40% people who have 15 to 20 years plus, and 10% miscellaneous in between.

So....What are all these people doing between 3 and 14 years? I'll tell you:
The one with < 3 years have nothing else, or a using AA for social purposes (but we all know the correct things to say.
The people with 15 plus are ususally men, either divorced or with a wife that wishes they'd get out from underfoot....they go to meetings and get to be guru's like my first husband.

the sober people from 3 to 15......are home making love to their husbands and wives, playing with their kids, doing creative things. In other words, having a life.

If you did not intend this to be a negative view of AA, then I profoundly apologize. I did misinterpret your post. It has been my experience that a fair number of those between 3 and 15 years are there because they find some value in it and it is the way they can pay back some of the help they have received from the support of others. You also posted that 'you must be missing something.' I just perceived that you saw it differently. Again if I was wrong, I am sorry.

The book is primarily on the experiences of the respectable alcoholic (that suit and tie guy) and his family.

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