Given the preamble...

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... do you think that some level of health care is a constitutional right?

The Constitution of the United States
Preamble: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

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hmmm.... a constitutional right? I dunno. I'm not a constitutional scholar. However, I think it's in the best interest of all Americans except those in the insurance industry.

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Well it strikes me that we do all manner of things in the interest of protecting our interests around the globe it just seems having some type of universal healt care would also be in the best interests of the citizenry as well.

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Agreed. Does it need to be a C. right?

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I think it would be less likely to be f'd with if it were.

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true, but does it need to be?

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You'd think so.

Apparently it saps American's moral fibre, or something, though.

Or steals from other Americans.

You guys - speaking en masse - are individualistic to the point of insanity, sometimes, it seems to we other rich countries.

It just seems utterly natural to me to share and care for those not as able to care for themselves. We have been doing it since the cave days.

Cute butterfly.

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I agree with you, dlowan. I don't have much, but I'd rather a tax hike than a tax cut if it'd help out those without health care.

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Howdy do, Ms D.? I don't know how much it is our being individualistic as it is our (the American population) being a huge profit center when it comes to health care.

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I don't see any reason why it should be considered a Constitutional right. The Constitution gives all sorts of other freedoms which work towards making health care available to all. Expensive beyond comprehension, yes, but it is available for everyone. When it comes to the indigent and others who cannot afford it, there are various state run programs and federal programs which help and pay in full. Not to mention free clinics and University Hospitals which often work on sliding scales.

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Sturgis, I'm curious why it would not be considerd a Constitutional right; given everything else the constitution provides for, it seems to me the well being/health to do it all seems fundamental to all that.

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BlaiseDaley wrote:

Howdy do, Ms D.? I don't know how much it is our being individualistic as it is our (the American population) being a huge profit center when it comes to health care.

Yes - but the same market forces would obtain in other countries - and do (ours, as you know, is a mixed medical system) - but most other western countries fall further towards the group end of a group interest vs individual interest continuum - ie they see more community responsibility for stuff than you Americans do.

Let me use guns as an example.

Your gun ownership thing demonstrably causes America great social evil - but the individual right to own guns has, so far, been seen to outweigh the community good. So - you guys allow guns in a way most countries see as insane.

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BlaiseDaley wrote:

Sturgis, I'm curious why it would not be considerd a Constitutional right; given everything else the constitution provides for, it seems to me the well being/health to do it all seems fundamental to all that.

Well, I see nothing anywhere in there that outright says "and pay for health care for all" The thing is the structure of The Constitution gives all people rights. These rights are there so people can live freely within this country and through that freedom they can obtain employment and access to various health care facilities. So, perhaps in some way, it does include health care but it is also indicating that if a person wants to obtain said health care they must go out and find it and in that manner earn it. This would indicate that they are then doing something which (in only the most loosely based thinking) says they are in support of our Constitution and the country as a whole.

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dlowan wrote:

Yes - but the same market forces would obtain in other countries - and do (ours, as you know, is a mixed medical system) - but most other western countries fall further towards the group end of a group interest vs individual interest continuum - ie they see more community responsibility for stuff than you Americans do.

Let me use guns as an example.

Your gun ownership thing demonstrably causes America great social evil - but the individual right to own guns has, so far, been seen to outweigh the community good. So - you guys allow guns in a way most countries see as insane.

I think it's a matter of flavour vs flavor; I see the individual interest you speak of as the profit motive, I think it reduces down to about the same goo. I do think, as you mentioned with the mixed system Oz has, that the trend towards making a buck is going to become more prevalent in the rest of the world.

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I disagree.

There is profit motive, of course - but I think the US generally weighs the scales more in the direction of individual freedom - in some areas (not, for instance, in the area of allowable deviation from some odd puritanesqe norm in the behaviour of your politicians) - than most other countries.

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My take is the for profit idea is a fallout of the individualistic slant you mentioned. It's an odd mix because corporations here are considered as individuals... hmmmm... I'm off to the cogitator.

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But the profit thingy is pretty universal - social arrangements (like the balance given to the good of the community vs the rights of the individual) are not.

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Does ". . . promote the general welfare" guarantee my right to a swimming pool in the back yard? If I can afford it, it just might.

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What good is a swimming pool if you're too sick to use it. I understand the point you're making but we already have a surgeon general, a national institute of health, a center for disease control all of which would seem to point to the importance of the general health of the country. We've amassed huge piles of weapons all to protect the citizenry, we go into other countries to destroy their illegal crops it just seems to me that given all this concern for the population, to promote its general welfare, some basic level of health care isn't too much of a stretch.

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above and beyond the programs in place, most bills that are created in an ER by anyone..even if they walked in with a simple ear ache.. do NOT count totally against ones credit and are absorbed by the hospital/support groups/donations etc.
So even in the poorest of areas, there IS healthcare to be had at no immediate cost to the needy person.
yes , using ERs for basic exams does cost the tax payer, but we are already paying. People who need it have it available.

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Given the preamble...

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