Fitzgerald Investigation of Leak of Identity of CIA Agent

okie wrote:

... and I wouldn't buy a used car from him to be honest.

Are you kidding? He's so slick, he could sell a used car to a used car salesman.

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Ticomaya wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
... I voted for Bush in 2000. ... And, he wasn't a very good governor of Texas. And, not such a good manager of the businesses he ran. ...

Why, again, did you vote for him?

Because he seemed like a nice and honest guy, who knows what he wants and doesn't bend in the wind. Al Gore didn't seem like that kind of guy. Those things used to matter more to me then actual successful leadership.

Cycloptichorn

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okie wrote:

You voted for Bush in 2000, well, thats a shock, and I am being honest. Its nice you admit the man is decent. Look, its trendy to criticize Bush right now, he is the butt of jokes, and he is a lame duck and people want to move on, but I will stick up for him, he is a decent man, something that can't be said for Bill, who is truly a pshycotic type of personality, not a guy that should run any country, and I wouldn't buy a used car from him to be honest. He needs to go back to Arkansas, get a real job, and take his wife with him.

I think Bush did alot of good, while making a few mistakes, but we are better off with him than we would have been with the alternatives given us. He deserves credit for doing his level best for the country. It is now time to move on with fresh leadership, which we won't find anything good in the Democratic Party, I am pretty sure of that.

It's hard for me to think that we are better off then we could have been given other options. On a lot of issues, we have moved in a very negative direction. Hard for me to ignore. I'll tell you one thing - Bush's character, and his moral nature, have never really benefited me personally in any way. Never seemed to help me at all, just as Clinton's personal problems never really hurt me. His policies are what have turned me away from him.

You'll note that I'm not a Hillary fan either and have consistently spoken well of Obama and McCain. I'm not so partisan to believe that Republicans cannot be good leaders or never have good ideas for America; are you so partisan that you can't believe that Democrats can have good ideas, and be good leaders?

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
... I voted for Bush in 2000. ... And, he wasn't a very good governor of Texas. And, not such a good manager of the businesses he ran. ...

Why, again, did you vote for him?

Because he seemed like a nice and honest guy, who knows what he wants and doesn't bend in the wind. Al Gore didn't seem like that kind of guy. Those things used to matter more to me then actual successful leadership.

Cycloptichorn

Well, based on those criteria, you seem to have made a wise choice.

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Bush an honest guy? LOL

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
... I voted for Bush in 2000. ... And, he wasn't a very good governor of Texas. And, not such a good manager of the businesses he ran. ...

Why, again, did you vote for him?

Because he seemed like a nice and honest guy, who knows what he wants and doesn't bend in the wind. Al Gore didn't seem like that kind of guy. Those things used to matter more to me then actual successful leadership.

Cycloptichorn

Perhaps you need to consider the fact that if you can be wrong, perhaps you are wrong now, not then. After all, is Al Gore proven himself to be a nice and honest guy? And I think character is absolutely necessary to be a successful leader. People with character do not always make the right decisions, but nobody does, and at least I want to be able to trust someone to try. And one important point to remember, successful leaders are not always popular at the time. Doing the popular thing will guarantee doing the wrong thing much of the time. That fact is so important in a representative republic wherein we should vote for people with character to study issues in depth, more than we have time to do, and make the right decisions. And that fact is why a pure democracy can be dangerous.

Quote:

It's hard for me to think that we are better off then we could have been given other options. On a lot of issues, we have moved in a very negative direction. Hard for me to ignore. I'll tell you one thing - Bush's character, and his moral nature, have never really benefited me personally in any way. Never seemed to help me at all, just as Clinton's personal problems never really hurt me. His policies are what have turned me away from him.

You'll note that I'm not a Hillary fan either and have consistently spoken well of Obama and McCain. I'm not so partisan to believe that Republicans cannot be good leaders or never have good ideas for America; are you so partisan that you can't believe that Democrats can have good ideas, and be good leaders?

That is why you can be respected as a liberal. However, one thing mystifies me, McCain is a supporter of the war, and am I wrong to assume that is the main reason you have turned against Bush. You don't seem to be consistent if you are a true liberal.

P.S. I think Clinton's personal problems hurt the country and you in ways you haven't even begun to comprehend. Being a resilient country, we can survive, but the fact that Clinton was elected sadly says more about the country than it does about him. The upcoming election is also a referendum on the country, what will the country vote for and therefore deserve?

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Ticomaya wrote:

okie wrote:
... and I wouldn't buy a used car from him to be honest.

Are you kidding? He's so slick, he could sell a used car to a used car salesman.

Ticomaya, I keep recommending he go back to Arkansas and get a real job for the first time. In light of your point, perhaps he should go to the Arctic and sell refrigerators to Eskimos? At least until global warming melts all the ice up there.

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Bush never lies:

http://www.bushwatch.com/bushlies.htm

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okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
... I voted for Bush in 2000. ... And, he wasn't a very good governor of Texas. And, not such a good manager of the businesses he ran. ...

Why, again, did you vote for him?

Because he seemed like a nice and honest guy, who knows what he wants and doesn't bend in the wind. Al Gore didn't seem like that kind of guy. Those things used to matter more to me then actual successful leadership.

Cycloptichorn

Perhaps you need to consider the fact that if you can be wrong, perhaps you are wrong now, not then. After all, is Al Gore proven himself to be a nice and honest guy? And I think character is absolutely necessary to be a successful leader. People with character do not always make the right decisions, but nobody does, and at least I want to be able to trust someone to try. And one important point to remember, successful leaders are not always popular at the time. Doing the popular thing will guarantee doing the wrong thing much of the time. That fact is so important in a representative republic wherein we should vote for people with character to study issues in depth, more than we have time to do, and make the right decisions. And that fact is why a pure democracy can be dangerous.

Quote:
It's hard for me to think that we are better off then we could have been given other options. On a lot of issues, we have moved in a very negative direction. Hard for me to ignore. I'll tell you one thing - Bush's character, and his moral nature, have never really benefited me personally in any way. Never seemed to help me at all, just as Clinton's personal problems never really hurt me. His policies are what have turned me away from him.

You'll note that I'm not a Hillary fan either and have consistently spoken well of Obama and McCain. I'm not so partisan to believe that Republicans cannot be good leaders or never have good ideas for America; are you so partisan that you can't believe that Democrats can have good ideas, and be good leaders?

That is why you can be respected as a liberal. However, one thing mystifies me, McCain is a supporter of the war, and am I wrong to assume that is the main reason you have turned against Bush. You don't seem to be consistent if you are a true liberal.

P.S. I think Clinton's personal problems hurt the country and you in ways you haven't even begun to comprehend. Being a resilient country, we can survive, but the fact that Clinton was elected sadly says more about the country than it does about him. The upcoming election is also a referendum on the country, what will the country vote for and therefore deserve?

This election is no more a referendum on the 'country' then any other election has been. Stop being theatrical.

McCain supports the war, and I don't. But he's honest about his support and his opinions and he knows the price of war in ways that no other candidate could. I don't think he'd keep us in Iraq a minute longer then was necessary to stabilize the place. Like I said earlier - I don't have to agree with him on everything.

My biggest problem with Bush isn't the Iraq war per se, but lies and poor policies within his administration. I didn't like him humping 9/11 for years. I don't like fear being used as a lever, the way the Republican party did for 6 straight years. It doesn't work any more, have you noticed? Stopped working on me long ago.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclo, Add to your list a) mixing his religion into the poltiics of this country, b) authorizing torture of prisoners, c) negating habeus corpus, d) illegal wiretaps, and e) increasing the national debt that mortgages our children's future.

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That's a good point. Okie, under Bush, our economy has been a nightmare.

But you say, we're growing, jobs aren't that bad, what's the problem?

The problem is that our national debt has gone up by half under his watch. That's horrendous. That's the worst record of any president in the last 50 years. And it's still going up. Big time.

Fiscally, his policies are screwing us. There's never going to be any 'growing our way out of debt.' Don't buy into voodoo economics, b/c it doesn't work, provably. Bush's casual disregard for fiscal sanity is one of his major failings - and I think we all know that no social program has tacked on debt, no mandate has put us under, to anywhere near the extent that his elective war has done so.

Cycloptichorn

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ci, posting such websites is a lie in and of itself. I analyzed the supposed lies on a similar website by leftist whackos, and the vast majority are things taken out of context, twisted, and more a matter of policy and judgement than lies. The websites themselves are big lies. Not to say Bush never says something that isn't exactly right, but intentional? Shall we start tabulating all of your "lies" on this forum, ci?

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

That's a good point. Okie, under Bush, our economy has been a nightmare.

But you say, we're growing, jobs aren't that bad, what's the problem?

The problem is that our national debt has gone up by half under his watch. That's horrendous. That's the worst record of any president in the last 50 years. And it's still going up. Big time.

Fiscally, his policies are screwing us. There's never going to be any 'growing our way out of debt.' Don't buy into voodoo economics, b/c it doesn't work, provably. Bush's casual disregard for fiscal sanity is one of his major failings - and I think we all know that no social program has tacked on debt, no mandate has put us under, to anywhere near the extent that his elective war has done so.

Cycloptichorn

There is no other way to get out of debt besides growing out of it in my opinion. Cold turkey would be such a shock to the entitlement crowd and bureaucracy that you would have a revolution on our hands. And if you think you can raise taxes with the stroke of a pen and erase the deficit, you are living in denial for sure.

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okie, Oh, please do! I'm asking you for a favor that you reveal all the lies I posted on a2k.

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Bush lie:

Subject to a Warrant and/or No Time For Warrants.
During the 2004 campaign, Bush claimed "Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."

FACT: The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act allows the President to seek a warrant up to 3 days AFTER initiating the wiretap. The President never sought any such authority after the fact for this program.

The administration requested the ability to conduct warrantless searches as part of the September 11th resolution, but Congress rejected this. In fact, Gonzales admitted that he was told by "certain members of Congress" that "that would be difficult if not impossible."

Once the story broke, however, the administration then claimed that it could not wait to get a warrant because it needed "to move quickly to detect" plotting of terrorism between people in the United States and abroad. (President Bush)

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What Bush said:
"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."

State of the Union Address - 1/28/2003

FACT:
Zero Chemical Weapons Found
Not a drop of any chemical weapons has been found anywhere in Iraq

What Bush said:
"We have also discovered through intelligence
that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas."

State of the Union Address - 1/28/2003

FACT:
Zero Aerial Vehicles Found
Not a single aerial vehicle capable of dispersing chemical or biological weapons, has been found anywhere in Iraq

What Bush said:
"Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications and statements by people
now in custody reveal that
Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of Al Qaida."

State of the Union Address - 1/28/2003

FACT:
Zero Al Qaeda Connection
To date, not a shred of evidence connecting Hussein with Al Qaida or any other known terrorist organizations have been revealed.
(besides certain Palestinian groups who represent no direct threat to the US)

What Bush said:
"Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at [past nuclear] sites."

Bush speech to the nation - 10/7/2002

FACT:
Two months of inspections at these former Iraqi nuclear sites found zero evidence of prohibited nuclear activities there

IAEA report to UN Security Council - 1/27/2003

What Bush said:
"We gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in."

Bush Press Conference 7/14/2003

FACT:
UN inspectors went into Iraq to search for possible weapons violations from December 2002 into March 2003 (when Bush chased them out to start his illegal war)

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okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
That's a good point. Okie, under Bush, our economy has been a nightmare.

But you say, we're growing, jobs aren't that bad, what's the problem?

The problem is that our national debt has gone up by half under his watch. That's horrendous. That's the worst record of any president in the last 50 years. And it's still going up. Big time.

Fiscally, his policies are screwing us. There's never going to be any 'growing our way out of debt.' Don't buy into voodoo economics, b/c it doesn't work, provably. Bush's casual disregard for fiscal sanity is one of his major failings - and I think we all know that no social program has tacked on debt, no mandate has put us under, to anywhere near the extent that his elective war has done so.

Cycloptichorn

There is no other way to get out of debt besides growing out of it in my opinion. Cold turkey would be such a shock to the entitlement crowd and bureaucracy that you would have a revolution on our hands. And if you think you can raise taxes with the stroke of a pen and erase the deficit, you are living in denial for sure.

Really? In the 90's we had higher taxes, and by the later years, no deficit at all and a shrinking debt. I think you are living in denial about a simple fact:

Raising taxes raises Federal revenues. Considerably. A combination of higher taxes and spending restraint will be necessary in order to continue to get on the path to fiscal responsibility. Closing tax loopholes which allow rich folks to hide monies tax-free, which allow corporations (such as everyone's favorite, Halliburton) to avoid paying taxes almost altogether, will go a long way towards balancing budgets, as well.

Cycloptichorn

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Letter

Cheney must go
Brian Napier, Concord

For the Monitor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

January 03. 2008 12:26AM

As the House Judiciary Committee finally takes up the Kucinich resolution on the impeachment of Shooter Cheney, it is essential to convict him!

He was chief among those cooking the books on intel over at the CIA prior to Bush's intentional-lie-based oil war in Iraq, which to date has claimed 3,901 dead American kids for no cause. And 2007 was the deadliest year yet.

Cheney led in the effects to destroy Valerie Plame and her international networks at a time of war, which under the 1917 Espionage Act would quality as high treason! Thanks to those efforts we have no idea what is or is not occurring inside Iran any longer!

Cheney is still beating the war drums to gin up fear about Iran and nukes in the face of the obvious NIE conclusions to the exact opposite!

Shooter Cheney must be the first to go! All tall elegant lawyers with a penchant for weekend hunting should then be able at long last to breathe a sigh of relief!

BRIAN NAPIER

Concord

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cicerone imposter wrote:

okie, Oh, please do! I'm asking you for a favor that you reveal all the lies I posted on a2k.

That isn't a good use of time, ci, instead I will keep pointing out where we disagree. In the websites, some Bush disagreements are classified as lies, so if you want to call them that, fine.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Really? In the 90's we had higher taxes, and by the later years, no deficit at all and a shrinking debt. I think you are living in denial about a simple fact:

Raising taxes raises Federal revenues. Considerably. A combination of higher taxes and spending restraint will be necessary in order to continue to get on the path to fiscal responsibility. Closing tax loopholes which allow rich folks to hide monies tax-free, which allow corporations (such as everyone's favorite, Halliburton) to avoid paying taxes almost altogether, will go a long way towards balancing budgets, as well.

Cycloptichorn

I have posted time and again that I think we are still below the peak of the Laffer curve, so raising taxes will raise revenues, however, it is not a zero sum game, and it will burden the economy further. The point at which we are probably on right now is a flatter portion of the curve so that any tax hike will not raise as much revenue as desired even though it will probably raise some. The economy will suffer at some point, and of course all other factors that affect the economy are also factors as well, so it is sometimes difficult to calculate the exact effect right away. It could be short term or long term. I think the far safer, surer, and more fiscally responsible way is to slow the growth of spending drastically rather than raising taxes.

And I still think a tax cut sometimes jumpstarts an economy that is beginning to languish, but when other factors are going better, perhaps we can afford to pay a higher rate to raise revenue. One must remember also that GDP rates of growth are compounding, so that if it tanks for a year or two, the effect is lasting in terms of future tax revenues as well.

Another name for "tax loopholes" is "tax incentives," which your lovable representatives you send to Washington enact for a reason to stimulate various things, such as energy production, environmental projects, the list goes on.

And I still think Gingrich deserves as much or more of the credit as Clinton for the deficits being reduced in the 90's.

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Fitzgerald Investigation of Leak of Identity of CIA Agent

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